Need some questions answered about my O. chierchiae (originally mercatoris)

[Jon Crossan]

this is the filter I am using. I'm not sure if its a skimmer or not, I read on a lot of different sites that sometimes octopus will damage skimmers (keep in mind I was expecting a bimac when I got charley) I don't think charley would be able to though. Also my friend from fins said that the filter would do the job and provide the proper amount of filtration along with the live rock and sand. But don't quote me on that, that was about a year ago when I first set up the tank little details don't stick with me that long and I'm sure if I am wrong he'll be reading this thinking "aw jon your making me look bad" haha.

 

[Thales]

Thats not a skimmer, but as long as you clean/change the filter media often, once a week or so, it should do the trick. A skimmer is great on ceph tanks adding o2 to the water and doing a great job of removing any ink, but I understand not using one for an octo on a tank with no sump.

Where are you located (sorry if I missed it)?

Thanks for the updates!

 

[DWhatley]

Jon,
I am not familiar with the insides of that filter so my suggestion my not be useful but there is a pad filter called Poly-Filter (do not confuse it with the blue polyester filters often going by the term poly filter, this is a white 4" x 8" pad). It is not made for cannister filters but can be cut and used in almost anything and I have used it in addition to charcoal in my cannisters. It was designed to clean drinking water and has found a home in aquariums as well. They are expensive because they are disposable only and I hunt pricing regularly. This is where I got my last batch and they are more than twice this price in the stores (even after shipping costs):

http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17570&cat=0&bestseller

These change color when they are dirty (not much help with the green body but you will see how much stuff it is collecting) and will help with the protein removal more than anything I have found besides a skimmer (I use this with my combo overflow/skimmer for the 15 gallon as well as using it as a sump prefilter for my return water two of my other tanks).

You might pickup a brine shrimp net if you are not into making a DIY pantyhose ink remover. I have also found that a turkey baster does a good job with the Merc's very thick ink but only the skimmer will catch Octanes very thin ink.

 

[Thales]

I used to use polyfilters, but stopped and saw no change. Randy Holmes-Farley doesn't seem to think much of them.

Drsfostersmith.com has them for good prices usually as well.

 

[monty]

Nesis describes this species as "suckers on male arm ends (except hectocotylized arm) replaced by a brush of small finger-like papillae arranged in 4 rows. No greatly enlarged suckers. Body smooth.... Head and mantle above with very conspicuous dark bands outlined by a fine greenish-yellow line on a light background; bands longitudinal on head and transverse on mantle. Pale round or oval spots on arms. No cirri over eyes. Lingula length 8% of hectocotylized arm length. 8-9 filaments in demibranch. Egg length 3.5-4mm."

So it sounds like there won't be oversized suckers, but you might be able to tell from the arm tips. On the other hand, it looks sort of like Charley has cirri over his/her eyes to me...

 

[DWhatley]

Thales,
If you could see the stuff that does not return to the tank from my sump you would swear I used them to clean a skimmer (I use them in stead of a sponge on the intake of the return pump). Unlike the advertised use, however, it does not successfully replace carbon for water clarity and I use both and where I can, I place it before the carbon to extend the life of the carbon since it is not supposed to release what it collects. I would love to find a reusable alternate but I have not yet seen anything collect like this material. I will try to remember to photograph the one on Octane's tank next weekend.

 

[gholland]

Monty,

Do you have the description for O. zonatus to compare with O. chierchiae?

 

[fishkid6692]

jon where are you located?

 

[monty]

Monty,

Do you have the description for O. zonatus to compare with O. chierchiae?

As Roy pointed out, they're Atlantic rather than Pacific (although they live in Panama, so I expect it's not impossible that they could make it through the canal... that's probably less likely since they're large-egged so their young aren't planktonic, though).

Here's some more sorta-cryptic description from Nesis:

"No ocellar spot on web... wide transverse dark brown or yellowish brown stripes on light yellowish background on mantle, head, and arms. Small animals, mantle length to 3cm, 6-7 filaments in demibranch. Ligula length 6-9% of hectocotylized arm length. Egg length about 6 mm. Southern part of the Caribbean Sea, inner shelf."

I suspect "inner shelf" is what Roy was referring to about depth... that probably (correct me if I'm wrong, teuthologists) means that it lives at depth, rather than in the shallows by the shore. It was described by Voss in 1968.

 

[gholland]

As Roy pointed out, they're Atlantic rather than Pacific (although they live in Panama, so I expect it's not impossible that they could make it through the canal... that's probably less likely since they're large-egged so their young aren't planktonic, though).
...
I suspect "inner shelf" is what Roy was referring to about depth... that probably (correct me if I'm wrong, teuthologists) means that it lives at depth, rather than in the shallows by the shore. It was described by Voss in 1968.

Yeah, I've seen the ranges listed as being Atlantic side of Panama for zonatus and Pacific side for chierchiae, but since Jon's octo was supposedly from Florida, it just made me curious... I came across an article by Nesis that talks about 9 pairs of closely related species on opposite sides of the Panama Isthmus and those are one of the pairs. Interesting stuff. It's also interesting that both species have benthic hatchlings even though the chierchiae eggs are ~1/3 smaller. They may not produce planktonic young that would drift through the canal, but I was still just wondering about the possibility of chierchiae wandering through since they are the shallower of the two species... stranger things have happened... The FAO Species ID Guide for the Western Central Atlantic lists the zonatus occuring at 30 to 75 m depth and I think the chierchiae occur in low tidal zones?

I assume Nesis linked those 9 pairs based on information presented in the 3 references he gives... any idea if those are based on genetic studies or physical characteristics? Biology is definitely not my area, but I'm finding this stuff fascinating.

Greg

 

[monty]

I assume Nesis linked those 9 pairs based on information presented in the 3 references he gives... any idea if those are based on genetic studies or physical characteristics? Biology is definitely not my area, but I'm finding this stuff fascinating.

Dunno, that's quite a dense paper -- maybe I can track down some references. Marinebio_guy is pretty interested in this sort of stuff, and Steve and Kat are probably a lot more facile with this stuff.

 

[gholland]

Nesis starts talking about zonatus and chierchiae in the last two paragraphs on page 217 (page 19 of the pdf).

The references he lists are:

Nesis KN (1985) Oceanic cephalopods: Distribution,
life forms, evolution. Nauka Press, Moscow (in
Russian)

Voight JR (1988) Trans-Panamanian geminate
octopods (Mollusca: Octopoda). Malacologia 29(1):
289-294

Warnke K (1999) Diversität des Artenkomplexes
Octopus cf. vulgaris Cuvier, 1797 in Beziehung zu
seiner Verbreitung an der Ost- und Westküste
Lateinamerikas. Docteral dissertation, Universität
Bremen, Shaker Verlag, Aachen

And lucky us... not much English. Just seemed like it would be an interesting study topic if it hasn't already been done.

 

[monty]

Nesis starts talking about zonatus and chierchiae in the last two paragraphs on page 217 (page 19 of the pdf).

The references he lists are:

Nesis KN (1985) Oceanic cephalopods: Distribution,
life forms, evolution. Nauka Press, Moscow (in
Russian)

Voight JR (1988) Trans-Panamanian geminate
octopods (Mollusca: Octopoda). Malacologia 29(1):
289-294

Warnke K (1999) Diversität des Artenkomplexes
Octopus cf. vulgaris Cuvier, 1797 in Beziehung zu
seiner Verbreitung an der Ost- und Westküste
Lateinamerikas. Docteral dissertation, Universität
Bremen, Shaker Verlag, Aachen

And lucky us... not much English. Just seemed like it would be an interesting study topic if it hasn't already been done.

I expect that's the sort of thing Roy wants to do with DNA from Charley, although the part I find the most fascinating is the possibility that someone could discover the control of why these octos can brood multiple times, while most (all?) others can't. The comparison of closely related octos could be done with more common species as well, which would probably be easier if they could be raised in the lab, for example, because having the DNA doesn't really tell you much about how it works, so having the ability to watch the animals develop and study the systems that control their development and physiology is important, too...

 

[mucktopus]

because having the DNA doesn't really tell you much about how it works, so having the ability to watch the animals develop and study the systems that control their development and physiology is important, too...

Absolutely, and it would be amazing to have a culture of them going. But if we can't do that, then looking at the DAN will at least tell us who their close relatives may be, and if any of these is easily accessible for study.

 

[gholland]

I assume that zonatus can't brood multiple times, which would mean that chierchiae developed that ability over the last 2 million years if what Nesis says is true?