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Message from Squidman

Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
3,026
Please rethink your decision.

Squidman, I have to agree with everyone else. It makes no sense for you to leave the entire site when there is only one thread you don't like. It seems obvious that if you are offended and pained by the views of most of the people who post to that thread, then don't go there. You have a lot to offer, and would be sorely missed. If you choose to leave anyway, no one can stop you, but it really would be a shame. Both of my grandfathers were ministers, I was brought up going to church or participating in church activities in one form or another about 6 times a week. I went to a Christian university where religion studies were required, so obviously I took a lot of them. Beliefs can differ widely in various Christian churches and our professors encouraged critical thinking, learning about the history of the Bible, understanding the difficulties with translation that have occurred over the centuries, learning to identify when and by whom various passages of the Bible were written. All of my religion teachers were ordained ministers with docterates in various aspects of theology. None of them were Creationists, they were, however very devout Christians. Being a Christian and being an evolutionist are not mutually exclusive concepts.

I sincerely hope you will reconsider.

Sharon
 

cthulhu77

TONMO Supporter
Registered
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
6,638
I went to church once.




(actually, I was an acolyte, and had considered the priesthood...believe it or not...then I met this girl and )
 

Feelers

Vampyroteuthis
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2005
Messages
332
I went five days a week for 5 years when I was at an anglican school when I was younger. Thats actually quite a lot of church for a devout atheiest. Over 1/6 days of my entire life having gone to church. I never quantified that before!!!
 

monty

TONMO Supporter
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Mar 8, 2004
Messages
4,884
I certainly want to chime in as well asking you to reconsider. I value your contribution here, and I actually found your last post on the thread in question to be very sensible and reasonable. I'm not sure what posts in particular you see as attacking Christianity in general-- I certainly don't have the impression that anyone is bothered by Christians or the Christian religion as a whole. As you yourself said, the things that thread are complaining about are not representative of Christianity as a whole, and I believe that is understood as implicit in the discussion. However, it's not my place to question what you may or may not find offensive, but I would urge you to either just avoid reading the thread or try to be accepting that there are people who have strong opinions on the topic, some of which may rub you the wrong way. No one is excluding you from offering differing viewpoints, and in fact when you last chimed into the discussion, several of us agreed with you and offered supporting comments, and no one directly rebutted your opinions at all.

To be honest, I'm completely perplexed at this being an issue, since you've generally come across to me as entirely reasonable, mature, and open. I have no idea where you get the idea that the thread objects to Christianity in any large sense; in my reading, it's only objecting to Christians who hold a particularly radical literal view of the Bible, and insist that it should be incorporated into the scientific establishment and the public educational system, to the subversion of the scientific method and all the principles on which science is founded. Since you've made it clear that you don't consider them representative of your interpretation of Christianity, I really don't understand your stance...

I hope you stay, but I wish you well if you decide not to. :goodbye: if that's what you prefer.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
2,580
Not much to say, please don't leave us! You're a great member and we all value your contribution here.

We all wish for you to stay, but if you decide to leave, then :goodbye:
 

WhiteKiboko

TONMO Supporter
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2003
Messages
2,702
I think leaving the board over a single thread might be a bit excessive.... i for one haven't even bothered reading that particular thread in a long time once it started taking a certain slant (even if i agreed with some things being said)

how about sticking around?
 

GPO87

Sepia elegans
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Messages
836
Dear Squidman, I highly doubt you're still coming back to view this thread, but if you are...
I just wanted to let you know that I feel for you, I always cringe when I go into that thread, but I realize that not everyone can possibly share my beleifs, I have to follow my own religion, even in a scientific community. I hope that you will reconsider, and maybe chat to myself or some of the other religious people on the site... (I know there are some) Please come back, we will miss you!
 
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
1,169
Squidman,

I wish I could say I agree with your decision, but I cannot. I wrote a column against Intelligent Design and have penned one or two angry letters against Creation 'Science' a lot in my day. Yet, yes, I have a religious faith about which I try my hardest to be respectful. Those aspects, religion and science, of my life are separate, and I choose the way I keep them both in perspective as a deeply personal thing.

You do have a point about how we on the TONMO board can get loose sometimes, and how we can inadvertently (and purposely) insult people and their beliefs. I, myself, am very guilty of firing off one of the nastiest posts on this site on an unrelated matter and I still feel bad about that. Thankfully, Tony had a clearer head than I. I will say I'm sorry if you ever felt that we insulted your faith. I really doubt that was ever the intent.

No one here is insulting your faith. My frustration personally comes from the use of Christianity as a weapon in the idolatry known as the “culture wars” in the U.S.. The faith has great meaning, and its foundational philosophy of “Love one Another” is a great, world-changing thing. But religions, being a human thing, have a nasty habit of being warped by those in power to hold onto that power. Scientists for ages have faced oppression by churches for their works, even when the benefit may have come to humanity as a whole. I have a bad feeling that the roots of any anti-Christian prejudices stem from this and the following reasons.

I call the “culture wars” (or as I prefer - “kultur wars” - WW1 reference) idolatry because I don't believe it's really for the benefit of our society. Religious fanatics with very dubious agendas are trying to seize political power and control over our lives and that has historically been a bad idea. Many horrors have come from so-called 'religious' people taking power and using their faith to do this. I don't want to see another rise of evil, anti-religious madmen like Torquemada, Hitler, and Saddam Hussein. You want a great example of evil? Slavery. Yet, there are 'anti'-Christians here in the U.S. who are still pushing that it was the 'will of God' that many black people were stripped from Africa, chained, beaten, and outright murdered to 'spread the word'. Considering that Christianity's philosophy is “love one another”, these were obviously anti-Christian acts committed by those who believed that they were following the faith. Well, they were wrong, and amoral morons to boot.

All this had lead to a backlash against the faith. People are quick to hop on a pendulum, and religious prejudice is most often the result. It's rampant. Christians who hold to the ideas of love and peace are outright hated now, both by people prejudiced against Christianity and so-called 'conservative' and 'liberal' Christians who hold more to political allegiances rather than the foundations of their supposed belief.

So I'm outed as a Christian. BFD. Live with it, people.

So why don't I agree with your decision? Sometimes you need to hold your own. Sometimes you need to say something and counter. I would have loved if someone at school wrote a counter argument about Intelligent Design to illuminate the debate. I would have enjoyed some level of rational discourse. But there was none. Nothing. People just didn't care. I think you're shooting yourself down. I feel that you're hiding in the dark when you could be shining in the sun. Truth is, the reason I don't post on that thread much anymore is because I think I have said most of what I want to say, and I have been pressed for time as of late. Start your own threads. Stay and keep the conversation lively. Oh, and as far as the subject of your faith being a problem with the scientific community? Well, yes. It will be at times. I'm sorry to say, but you will have to learn to live with it, as I have, if you plan to exist within that community.

This goes to all you lurkers as well: post! Say something! TONMO thrives on insight and interest, and you all deserve respect and an ear. I, for one, besides welcoming our new cephalopod overlords, also welcome insight and communication. Best of luck to everyone. Hope to see you soon, Squidman.

Sushi and Sake,

John
 

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