Unknown Phylum. Any suggestions?

[Michael Blue]

Found some more tremoctopus pics...That gets my vote.

NameBright - Coming Soon

The pics already posted are better, so I didn't direct-link the ones I found.

Learning a LOT today!

 

[OB]

Thanks for reviving that link! This picture actually shows the stiff bowlike posture for pair 2 rather well.

 

[I Love Calamari]

There is one other explanation though ... has anyone heard of people dumping vast quantities of "bad" formaldehyde into the waters around South Africa? I recently saw a documentary which illustrated very clearly the effects this might have on marine life

 

[OB]

and

 

[Heather Braid]

I don't know a lot about mairne biology yet, but I've been trying to find what this is on the internet. I think it looks kind of like a sixgill stingray to me, and they are found off the waters of South Africa.

http://www.fishbase.org/identification/specieslist.cfm?famcode=44&areacode=

 

[CapnNemo]

I Love Calamari (welcome to TONMO by the way, and what an excellent first posting ) and Ob's posts are certainly very persuasive, however I think you may be working too much from the photos, and as you say, it's really difficult to make comparisons from such a limited range of pictures and angles.

I would also not be surprised if the "trunk" appears to be angled because of simple diffraction and it is merely a pointy mantle. The 3rd pic is attached as an indication of "pointiness" in this species.

That's a really good point, however Dr. Steve relays that the witness claims the 'trunk' was 'very distinctive' and that it 'appears to be able to move independently of the rest of the body'. I'd also be interested to know why Dr Steve discounted Tremoctopus, but I guess he's gone home for Easter now. However, I've got to admit Ob, that you are the undisputed master of ceph image analysis and you and I Love Calamari have posted some very convincing analysis, but I still think the jury's out and it's not over until Neil Diamond sings.

 

[I Love Calamari]

Thank you Ob and CapnNemo!

There is still room for debate, but I would lean towards another ceph as opposed to any other animals mentioned thus far. It simply lacks many traits (physiological and behavioral, though the behavior thing is guessing at this point based on swimming photos of all) compared to sea hares, nudibranchs, and rays. The ray just mentioned is very bumpy in appearance, has a tail, and a very pointed snout. Based on my experience with how rays swim, the wave like motion would have been apparent in the mystery photos and to the witnesses.

It also has in common, I think somewhat plainly, morphological features found in the tremoctopus and other cephalopods like a thing that looks like a mantle, things that look like vents and are in the right place, it is swimming in the right direction, has a very similar coloration, etc.

As for what the witnesses described, all we have really are the photos without talking directly to them. It has to be taken as hear-say for the most part. I work at a zoo and you would not believe (you might) what people describe or assume about the animals they are viewing at that time, right next to me. I cannot imagine what they may say when they get home. Meerkats quickly become "hairy possums" and the like. Behavior gets even more distorted. IMO, the pics have to speak for themselves right now, which can be unfortunate.

 

[Steve O'Shea]

'I love Calamari', a warm indeed, and as CapnNemo has said already, that was a mighty professional and academic entry into the realms of TONMO! (It appears you know a little more about marine biology than you give yourself credit for.) CapnN, I just awoke ... couldn't keep me away from this one!

As attractive as Tremoctopus appears to some, it just does nothing for me, but that's a personal opinion only. All pictures of Tremoctopus posted thus far/online look exactly like Tremoctopus. Every Tremoctopus I have seen looks just like Tremoctopus. Tremoctopus looks like Tremoctopus, and nothing else on this planet (it is quite dissimilar to Argonauta and Ocythoe, the two most similar/related cephs out there). At 30cm total length this would also have to be a rather small Tremoctopus, as Tremoctopus grows quite large (nothing wrong with being small; it's just an observation). How many times can I use the word Tremoctopus in a paragraph? I see nothing at all on any of the 4 images that looks remotely like a mantle; I see nothing that remotely resembles an arm or a web; I see nothing, other than a smooth skin that remotely resembles a cephalopod; I see absolutely nothing that remotely resembles an opisthobranch either.

Of all posts thus far, again, just my personal opinion, I favour Heather's - a ray, minus a tail, leaning towards this being vertebrate as opposed to invertebrate.

I don't know what a dolphin placenta looks like ... or what a mutant dolphin looks like (mutant as a consequence of some chemical, metal or radioactive discharge into South African waters), but this thing is just so bizarre that I'll consider anything right now.

 

[Clem]

...Based on the recent posts, I'm inclined to think Tremoctopus now, too. However, what I don't see in the mystery pics - and this may be due to vagaries of lighting, angle and camera interaction - is any of the pronounced irridescence that Tremoctopus photographed at surface usually displays. At the White Shark Trust, here's a link to their archives (2004) and pics of what's provisionally ID'd as the species in question: Click here, ceph pics about one-third of the way down the page. The Trust's members were hosted by Shark Diving Unlimited, which operates out of Gansbaii, South Africa. The pics taken above the surface show a full-spectrum animal, very like the ones already posted here; underwater pics show a brick-red one. At surface, mystery critter doesn't really match up, but perhaps Tremoctopus in distress would look that way, or maybe other people on the boat took pics that do show irridescence and bright patterning. Also, I recognize that if the arms were curled in upon themselves and compressed then we'd get something like the freaky sphincter-like visage in the 2nd pic, but if that's Tremoctopus, it's doing a mean imitation of a ceph that's swallowed its arms.

Steve, I don't see a ray there, unless you know of a ray that has a variable-geometry head with a truly freaky arrangement of lobes on it. It really looks like an invertebrate, to me, with enough features in common with Tremoctopus to get me nodding. However, being hopeful, I also wonder if might be something new.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[DHyslop]

...but this thing is just so bizarre that I'll
consider anything right now.

Anything?

 

[chrono_war01]

Above post: Reminds me of a alien mother ship.

...my bet would be a Tremoctopus, the shape doesn't strike me like a ray, nor a giant man eating jellyfish, sea hare or nudibranch. Some very good analysis work on the photos there.

 

[cuttlegirl]

Of all posts thus far, again, just my personal opinion, I favour Heather's - a ray, minus a tail, leaning towards this being vertebrate as opposed to invertebrate.

I only said ray because the holes reminded me of spiracles. Will have to post a picture of a sharp tailed mola later, because the tail of the mola really looks like the pointed part of the critter.

That being said, I am beginning to be convinced by all of the Tremoctopus photos.
Jennifer

 

[mmmccrthy3000]

 

[Steve O'Shea]

My problem(s) with the Tremoctopus theory is that there is no trace of any arm on this beast, nor eye, nor siphon (in the appropriate location), damage (if the arms were severed), nor evidence for the arms being 'withdrawn', suspended beneath the animal (we'd see that), or held in some sort of ball (if the animal was munching something in its web). The animal also clearly breaks the surface ... all rather odd.

I can only hope that there was some sort of video taken of this animal, additional photographs, and that Gwenith can locate them from one of the customers.

 

[monty]

to I Love Calamari from me, as well, and great insights, everyone. Of course, I'm not any less confused than when I first saw the pictures, but I've learned a lot about exotic sea critters that look sort-of-but-not-exactly-like the pics... It seems like many of the creatures described would have an obvious rippling motion associated with them, in particular rays and sea slugs. Part of the description says that it seems to move slowly possibly from the "vents," which doesn't seem to match that, although it also says the skirt "flaps" in the photos (which maybe implies that wasn't visible to the live witness?)