[Featured]: Octopuses and lobsters have feelings – include them in sentience bill, urge MPs

timothytyler113

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I don't eat certain things anymore either. That stems from a faith based diet restriction though. Not a moral problem with eating meat.

I think given advances in technology we possibly could find more, but I do not think it would lead to discovering sentience in certain animals. That would would be to subjective. If octopus lived as long as people that would change things. We probably wouldn't be as high on the food chain if they did. Fortunately they don't.
I think today we has people tend to anthropomorphize animals. It alters our perception of them, to a point that could be disadvantageous to us.

This is going to get a little uncomfortable for some, but it is important. It comes down to individuals and choice I think. When it comes to the market end of things.
Individuals should choose if they want to consume something based on all facts presented to them. So if if something is questionable... research it, beyond clips and headlines. Find the facts and go from there. If you choose to continue eating such things after your research... That is your choice. If you choose not to... that is fine too.
If a market demands it, it will continue. If it doesn't it will fade out. Legislation should not be brought into it. That is going to potential stir up more issues that more than likely aren't necessary.
I also think these days science sometimes get politicized... unfortunately. So it will be a difficult thing to figure out.
This is ideally how it should work. Others would disagree.
As long as the animals are treated humanely that is what is important. If they are farmed, treat them well and kill humanely. If animals need to be operated on, give them an anesthetic.

Now the health factor for people is another thing to think about when it comes to food. Is octopus really that safe to eat.
For instance, I seen part of a video were Gordon Ramsay was dealing with live octopus and he bit wear the brain was. Bolting in cattle has shown to spread potentially infectious matter to other areas of the animal. So is there any similar risk... That may not be the best way of dispatching an animal. We don't know what potential neurological problems could come from eating a life form with a complicated nervouse system. Think of bovine spongiform encephalopathy. That is also something to take into consideration.
 

tonmo

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All this is more or less how I think about it as well, so you won't get a whole lot of debate from me on these topics... But, here's one :smile: --

I do think there's a "we don't know what we don't know" factor to all this, and that is a two-way street. There are definitely some compelling insights we've gained through observations... And it seems to me that it is at least plausible that they have thoughts and sentience, and I don't think that's necessarily anthropomorphism -- not any more than it is to observe that the eye of the octopus is quite similar to our own, despite highly divergent evolutionary paths. But proving it is another thing... Cuttlefishes passing the marshmallow test was pretty interesting!
 

timothytyler113

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True somethings are pretty strait forward. Interpretation is key here though. Remember the octopus punching fish out of spite? I would think that is a more 'get away from me' than an actual action of being spiteful. Unfortunately this can get philosophical. What is true sentience? When does it surpass sentience and become sapience? It these animals could portray abilities outside of basic primitive urges that would be interesting. I have yet to see anything that indicates as such. Yes we see amazing things but it stems from basic urges.
Mating, feeding, hunting, etc. Our pet octopus might interact with us because it knows we are a source of food for example.

Here is more food for thought. What makes us advanced as a race is we can live long and communicate our history. Octopus are, by design, the opposite. They do not live long so they cannot pass down information. Each generation is new and has to learn it all over again. There advanced learning capabilities I would assume stems from a biological need to survive and adapt quickly than it is to serve them as potentially sentient beings.
 

gjbarord

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Good discussion!

I am really interested in why humans are constantly trying to find "intelligence" or "sentience" in other animals. It is just so strange to me. We are using our own biases of what those terms mean to apply them to other animals, maybe successfully or not. We are learning more and more about other animals as each day passes by and we are more and more amazed, which I think is great and exciting! At the same time, I wish there was more nuance in these types of things - as y'all have pointed out in your posts. I think what we need is more and more open discussion like this. Keep it up @timothytyler113 and @tonmo

Greg
 

timothytyler113

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Good discussion!

I am really interested in why humans are constantly trying to find "intelligence" or "sentience" in other animals. It is just so strange to me. We are using our own biases of what those terms mean to apply them to other animals, maybe successfully or not. We are learning more and more about other animals as each day passes by and we are more and more amazed, which I think is great and exciting! At the same time, I wish there was more nuance in these types of things - as y'all have pointed out in your posts. I think what we need is more and more open discussion like this. Keep it up @timothytyler113 and @tonmo

Greg
I feel there could be other factors into this as well. I won't go into it to much as this is not the place for it, but if there is legislation backing it, it's political... not going there.

I still personally believe it does stem from peoples willingness and acceptance to anthropomorphize things.
Had I not started keeping octopus. I would probably still think they were crazy intelligent. Not that they aren't intelligent, but it is more relative. They are smart for an invertebrate... but there is not a lot of competition. Ants, spiders, worms, and clams are definitely not winning a nobel prize anytime soon. So comparatively to them they are mad freaking scientists. They maybe pretty smart, but not in a way that would deem them sentient.
Glad to see this conversation has not gone south.
 

Hadla

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As long as the animals are treated humanely that is what is important. If they are farmed, treat them well and kill humanely. If animals need to be operated on, give them an anesthetic.

For instance, I seen part of a video were Gordon Ramsay was dealing with live octopus and he bit wear the brain was. .
Yes, that is the perfect way of saying that!💕

and eeeeewww why did he do that? 🤮

I’ve only had squid maybe 3 times in my life. Not much of a fan of seafood although I grew up in southern Louisiana 😂
 

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