• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Zebra Octopus For Sale In The Bay Area (a good thing?)

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Thales, I'd say now that you have it, to publish your observations and pictures etc so that people can see these animals and what they are like to keep.

What set up have you gone for? Have you tried using a deep layer of sand?

I for one would like to hear more about how it does in captivity and TONMO.com is the ideal place to do that. Most potential cephalopod keepers who visit here are doing so to learn more about the hobby before they jump in, so that can only be a good thing? I don't think we should glamorise them though.

I already put off one local wholesaler just last week from importing 'zebras'. Personally, I wouldn't buy one.

A good point, which is VERY relevant right now is the case of a species of small aquarium fish Microrasbora sp. galaxy. It was only discovered and first exported in August 2006 and has yet to be formally described.

At the start of February 2007 it transpires that the water body where the fish was found has been trashed and totally over fished to the point where it seems that its habitat has been totally destroyed!!! And that all in the space of a few months, so great was public demand!!!

Do a Google search on galaxy rasbora and click the first link which is to the practical fishkeeping website...

Next point is that I snapped up 26 of them.

However, they can be captive bred and already I am getting signs of spawning behaviour. In the not so distant future I will be able to supply local shops with CB stock just like what I am doing just now with Betta species such as renata (first documented captive breeding).

I justified buying them because I have them in a species only tank and I know I will be breeding them soon. Better me buying them than someone who buys a pair and sticks them in a community tank?

Which brings me to the sticky points about wunderpus & mimics. What's the point in keeping them? Or more specifically, keeping just one? They can't be bred and more importantly just dont seem to be kept alive for very long.

Dont let this be the next galaxy rasbora!
 

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Keeping my nose out of this one, I think you all know my viewpoints on keeping some cephs in captivity.

And, I'd like to stay a member! :smile:
 
cthulhu77;88280 said:
Keeping my nose out of this one, I think you all know my viewpoints on keeping some cephs in captivity.

And, I'd like to stay a member! :smile:

Greg - I think it would be helpful for anyone browsing for info about these animals if you summarized your thoughts here. :smile: And, I think we can have a nice discussion! If you feel the need we can take swings at each other in Florida. :whalevsa:
 
Thales;88288 said:
If you feel the need we can take swings at each other in Florida. :whalevsa:

Fine by me. :smile:

I horribly disagree with buying, keeping, supporting the capture, etc. of these animals...it is the reason that I left the pet industry over a decade ago, and continue to despise it.
 
I can totally respect that!
Was it because of cephs in general, 'zebras', or any wild caught animal?
 
Colin;88276 said:
Which brings me to the sticky points about wunderpus & mimics. What's the point in keeping them? Or more specifically, keeping just one? They can't be bred and more importantly just dont seem to be kept alive for very long.

Dont let this be the next galaxy rasbora!

Wow. I just read up on the galaxy rasbora - amazing that they sold for only 5-8 pounds each. At least 'zebra' occys aren't that cheap and therefore won't often be dumped into community tanks.

That is indeed the sticky point regarding almost any animal - is wanting to keep it in your house because it gives you pleasure really a good enough reason to collect them? I don't know. I guess my point in scooping up the wonderpus is because I believe I can give it a better life than it will get if a random person from an LFS picks it up, and possibly learn enough about it to take a crack at breeding them.
 
Until research can find out what the population mass is like, captive breeding is not going to help the wild one's at all. I have witnessed the virtual extinction of animals collected for the pet trade, and have heard all of the "I'm helping it out" lines before.

If no one buys them, no one will collect them. Once you purchase it, you have probably condemned 3 or more wild ones to death by capture.

It is a vicious circle.

IF the wild populations are as stable as say, the little brown octopus, or the bimac, then captive breeding would be fine...but what if they wipe out the wild stuff in a year or so? Then what will your reasoning be?
Sure worked out well for the Tasmanian Tiger, didn't it?
 
My reasoning is a little different than 'I'm helping it out'.
I have heard all the 'don't buy them and they won't be collected any more' reasoning before, and it doesn't work - the animals get collected for the people who will buy them. Legislation seems to be the only thing that actually makes a difference, and even then the will be collected, but a least there is some recourse and punishment if the law bothers to act.
I wish it were different.
I think if we actually care about stemming the collection of these animals, legislation is a more useful and practical place to spend our energy.
 
Case in point:

The Hog Isle Boa. Brought in huge numbers in the 80's to satisfy the pet trade, the snake went from a sale price of over 1,000 $ to less than 20 bucks within a year.
It wasn't worth collecting them at 20 bucks, and they weren't selling, so the wild caught animals were left alone. Unfortunately, the population had been so traumatized by the overcollection, that it will never recover, and the animal is expected to go extinct outside of captivity.

I guess that is great for those boa breeders out there, but it sure sucks for the snake as an animal, doesn't it?

http://www.centralpets.com/animals/reptiles/snakes/snk2756.html


If you don't buy them, they won't sell them. The retailers can't afford to lose that much money.
 
Why did the Hog Island Boa drop in price within a year?
From what I have read it didn't take a year, but like 6 years, and the price drop was because the collected all the nice colored ones, and no one wanted to pay for the 'ugly' ones.
 
Not at all. I was there to witness the entire thing, being a reptile importer at the time.

The first arrivals were called "clouded boas" ( a misnomer, since the clouded is a different type), and then " pink clouded", then "Hogg Island"...when the exporters heard of the interest in the snake, they basically ravaged the wild population completely, and the price plummeted.

I guess if you are talking stocks and bonds it would be one thing, but I love snakes more than I do people, and this one has always really burned my tailfeathers. The animals were sold out. They lost due to our greed. They are virtually extinct.

Is this o.k. with you? I doubt it.
 
Of course its not ok with me. I am not sure why you would even ask that question. Please remember that I am on your side, and it seems we just disagree on one point - does/can/has boycotting a species in the pet trade lead to a reduction in its collection?

I think this is a good discussion, and I would be happy to have my mind changed. I need a little more information.

In your experience, why did people stop buying the boas? Was it because the market was flooded, because people wanted to protect the wild populations, or for some other reason or reasons?

BTW, this is one of the only articles I can find that actually discusses the Hog Isle Boa in any detail:

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/reptiles/Breed_Profiles.aspx?aid=1429&cid=3685&search=
 
People have been causing the extinction or near extinction of animals for a long time. Sometimes it's because of fear and loathing (Mexican gray wolves, eastern panthers), sometimes it's because we "love" them ( or at least parts of them) to death, and sometimes it's because of food pressures. The two things they have in common however, are economic interests...someone is making money off their exploitation...and our apparent unwillingness or inability to do anything to stop it until it's too late. Very few governments will put ethical interests regarding animals ahead of the economic interests of their businessmen.
 
cthulhu77;88378 said:
If you don't buy them, they won't sell them. The retailers can't afford to lose that much money.

I agree, but this statement seems like a goal that is unreachable. How does the decision of the .01% of aquarium hobbyists to boycott buying exotic animals at the stores affect the retailers in any financially significant way.


Something on a higher level then just boycotting is definetly needed

Lets explore other options..

So Even if we try to be more vocal of the reasons of boycotting and attempt to educate by picketing and handing out a leaflet at the LFS, it would only succeed in maybe (Big maybe) that the animal will not be purchased here. But like how for every 1 person that boycotts the purchase of the animal and there are 100s of other hobbyists that would not, this is still 1 store in 100s of stores that would pick up the animal from the wholesellers to sell it.

Unfortunately, the amount of time it would take to educate the masses enough for the retailers to lose enough money and stop buying the animals, would probably take much longer than the time for the animal to meet a similar fate as the Hog Island Boa.

I feel the phrase 'The gates have already been opened' is a very fitting description. For even my proposed solution of legislation would probably be too timely of a task to do good for the animal as well.

I think most here agree with you that these rare animals should not be so indiscriminately imported for the ornamental marine trade, but the disagreement seems to lie on a different level.

We all agree about the value of the animal on a large scale, but if an individual animal appears in the neighborhood, our differences in moral decisions seem to surface.

My reasons for choosing to purchase the animal under this situation are the following.

1. I do not believe that my decision to boycott the animals purchase would make the slightest difference in stopping the industry from collecting them.
2. I have experience and a setup that can offer a higher quality of life then most others.
3. I am probably fascinated with the animal. (We have to admit that its not all altruistic)

I know that not everyone is in agreement with this opinion and I may not be as morally strong as Greg, which is an admiral trait, but it is probable a better course of action to push the discussion towards solutions that may truelly stop the import of these animals. For even if all of us here was to jump on the bandwagon of boycotting, the problem will still remain.
 
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