[Octopus Eggs]: Trapper's Babies - Tank Raised Mercatoris

So far I have 4 in the net and one known live still roaming the tank. I have not seen the one I missed last night, the roaming one was born this evening. The ones born tonight seem bigger than lasts night's trio but it is hard to tell. I am quite sure one was considerably larger than all the others though (keep in mind that these are tiny critters). For a reference, on the glass they look very much like a white, hungry (not bloated) Georgia tick. Myserable comparison but that's what they look like.
 
Miss Broody's hatchlings

Miss Broody(mother) and HideNSeek(father) are sibblings from Trapper so these are first generation tank bred and second tank raised and third in the tank.

It has been a loooong week and I have been up until 5:00 AM most mornings monitoring the hatching. I have lost count of the number of babies we have put into the net but I think it is close to 30, assuming some are not escaping and being reincarcerated. There are still 5 loose in the tank that refuse to crawl to a place of capture or are spooked by my capture technique (which makes me suspect escapees :wink:). Sometimes I wonder if I have recaptured numerous babies since they are all but impossible to see in the nets during the daytime and I only see 4 or 5 in each net at night.

Miss Broody seemed to release 4-6 a night for 5-6 nights but, unlike Trapper, I never saw her release even one and I think she would wait until I left before doing so. I found that if I would come up to the computer for an hour, there would be more babies to catch but sitting there watching was fruitless. We are assuming she has finally finished releasing young since there have only been the 5 elusive ones spotted for two nights (well mornings actually). Fortunately, neither the shrimp nor the male octos seem to bother the little ones.

I am feeding both nets Cyclop-eeze but am putting tiny (when I can get them) crabs and shrimp in one net but not in the other.

I am thinking about trying to acclimate a couple to daylight but am not committed to the idea, primarily because of my concern that it may hurt their eyes.
 
if they somehow became diurnal it would be awesome to finally have small octos that require smaller tanks, and are more economic yet still diurnal. Though it is risky, maybe attempt it with only 3-5 of them and see if the results are good or bad, and if good proceed with more.
 
Simple,
Yes, that is my temptation but having observed the "day" walk of the dying Mercs, it has occured to me that their eyes (and also the reason I have so few decent photos) may be painfully sensitive to light but that they start loosing their site in the end. I am not sure how I could tell if they were adjusting without pain and will have to think about this awhile yet. Also, mine are already in-bred. I may be able to dilute the next generation slightly by pairing cousins but I just don't know the ramifications of continuing this line. A lot will depend on the health of these babies (and if Medusa and Sistrurus also have young). Miss Broody had 5 times as many babies as her mother but the count is still quite low from what is considered normal (mind you I am not complaining that there are not 100).
 
You should be able to notice loss of sight by how they are hunting in comparison to the nocturnal ones. It would also be a good idea to only use low ambient light for the diurnal ones in order to keep the amount of light they get as low as possible, and maybe later increase it a little. These are just suggestions, as i am relatively new to octo keeping overall, but i would just love it if there were diurnal dwarf octos (hence, why i am so interested). Please keep us updated.
 
I dont think I would worry too much about in-breding yet. Many inverts are inbred for successive generations without problems and I think I am right in saying that it was the F14s that were only starting to show problems in the NRCC's Sepia when I was there. I remember having that conversation with James in 2002.

Keep up the very good work D
 
Thanks for the in-breeding info Colin. I would like to continue with these guys for at least one more generation if I can but have been concerned about the effects of in-breeding. Do you recall what occured at the point of problems? Since I started with a low birth rate and the tank raised generation improved on live born, so far so good (but still low from what the "statistics" quote). Should I look for malformation, failed eggs (I have yet to see an egg and would swear these were live births if I didn't know better), reduced live births? I am not even a little bit trained/educated in biology so I am only guessing (and somehow I don't think I could identify -retardation) and could use some coaching!

Speaking of untrained observation and second guessing. I am beginning to think that the Mercatoris (assuming that is what I have) may be inclined to be more scavenger than hunter. My thinking is certainly anticdotal but in review,
Trapper (1st generation WC female adult)
- She was by-catch from a stone crab trap. Stone crabs are too large for Mercs to kill and eat, was she after the bait?
- Snails and hermits ignored in the tank (mithrax crabs may have been eaten but it is unknown if they were alive or dead when consumed).
- While brooding she ate best when hand fed and eventually would not take live food but would take freshly killed food.
- After the hatching she actively at the zoo plankton I was feeding the hatchlings and would not take other food.

Tank raised (2nd generation, Trappers offspring).
- In the breeder net, would only catch shrimp from their shells, only one of 5 left the den to apparently hunt.
- All 5 could not or do not catch live shrimp after being released to the tank but will eat them if fed by hand (the one that "hunted" just swats them away now). Some will take "live" by hand others will only take dead and ink if given live.
- Ignored fish fry in breeder net (offerred after several months of age).
- Ignored snails in breeder net (all snails survived the 5 months the octos were kept in the net) and are ignored in the tank.
- Igored hermit crabs in breeder net and continue to ignore them in the tank.
- Brooding mom would take crab claw but would swat away shrimp that could have easily been eaten, will take dead shrimp or crab.
- All continue to eat Cyclop-eeze daily, only minor evidence that crabs in tank are being eaten (unknown if consumed before or after death in tank, no remains are ever found).
- All 5 seem to be living a normal lifespan.

Tank bred (current week old hatchlings)
- Have not eaten tiny live shrimp in net.
- One of two tiny crabs still in the net, second may have escaped - no carcass in the net.

Additionally, I have seen no signs of cannabilism and wonder about the origination of the statement. I don't recall Roy mentioning it in the blue rings either (he did mention "touching" and infections that seem to arise from it). The babies do seem to squabble over dens (I added more) and react when they bump into each other but there is no inking or paniced flight. The same has been true of the two second generation I keep in the 15 gallon.

Lastly, sadly, I think Medusa is a slow to mature male and not a female (sad because I was hoping for young from Sisturus, not because I needed more hatchlings to raise!). I started to notice enlarged suckers a couple of weeks ago but they were not as large as those on Sisturus. Medusa has always watched Sisturus and eventually copies his behavior (or so it seems). This week Medusa started curling up the third arm to the right. At first I had hopes of mimicing but the suckers on the arms are definitely larger so I think Medusa is a late maturing male (Sisty and HideNSeek matured at about the same time so I think Medusa is the latent one). I suspect the meeting tussels are a dominance thing and it seems they now meet (when they are going to grab each other) with their enlarged suckers exposed which makes me wonder if the enlargement has something to do with dominance. I think the "mating" I saw and recorded was either exploratory or an "any port in a storm" kind of action since there were no females available to a randy male.

If Roy or Crissy are monitoring, comments on my thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
I am pretty sure it was only to do with the success rates of breeding/hatching and the vitality of the youngsters...
 
Miss Broody still releasing babies after 10 days

I have absolutely no idea how many fry are in nets and how many are still loose in the tank! I thought I was recollecting three to five each night for the last 5 or 6 night (I did finally think of something to block the hole in the net) but Monday night I was observing the tank at 3:00 AM and discovered that Miss Broody was still tossing them out of her den :roll:.

She took a shrimp early Monday night so I initially thought it was shrimp remains or poop that she jetted out until it started swimming. Same thinking with the second and third :shock:.

I have seen some of them go into the live rock so I am at a total loss on how many there are. If I figure 5 a night for 10 nights I think I would be close (since we counted 30 - give or take - that were caught). She is still keeping a shell door tightly closed on the den and I did not observe last night so I don't know if we are done yet or not.

Not knowing how many hatchlings there were also makes it impossible to know how many losses there may have been. So far all the ones I have seen appear healthy, are eating and I have seen no dead ones in the nets but I don't see many live ones either (perhaps 10 per net late at night) as they hide in every imaginable cranny in addition to hiding on and in the shells.

There is one that has been isolated from the others and given a name. It had been seen swimming early in the evening when there are still white LED's over the tank. Neal insisted on naming it Blade after some show (movie?) about a day walking vampire :roll:. I have one other in that net because I moved the red plastic tube (that Monty found) into the same net and a baby octo had already taken residence. I am feeding the diurnal hopeful net between 6 and 7 in the evening but also feed at 11:00ish and 2:00ish when I feed the others. Tonight I did not see Blade swimming when I fed but did see him later, with lights still on, on the side of the net. I tried stroking the tank where he was perched and he did move an arm in response so I am convinced he is not blind.
 
wow thats very good, keep us updated on Blade, and hopefully other will follow his habits. If you do get any more of them to turn diurnal, that you wont be keeping, i would be very interested in purchasing one. Maybe if you separate a small group and only feed during the day they will be more inclined to come out. Also, if you catch any of them out during the day try feeding them, sort of like a reward and they might learn that if they are out in the day they will get more food than usual. These are just some suggestions, that i thought of today at school..
 
AM,
You know the drill. If your interested in going back to pygmies, let me know but I thought you were considering attempting brooding briareus(?)
 

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