[Locked]: Controversial thread on low-end ceph keeping

[cthulhu77]

Cold water means you don't have to keep the tank water clean and pure?
Hogwash.

Look, I am not attacking you in a personal sense at all, and the fact that you have had some limited success with your methods is fine and dandy, but we do have to flavour the topic with hard won experience. We have had members keep octopus's (you can spell the multiple any way you want, it's all correct) in a variety of tank setups...some going very, very frugal and being happy with six months, to those of us who have decided to make sure we are providing the BEST POSSIBLE habitat for the captive octopii.

Are your experiences valid? Of course. Is it a guideline for people who are new to keeping cephalopods? No. You have to remember, there is nothing wrong with new ideas (remember the use of skimmers in the 70's?), but they have to be proven, lest they kill off a number of captive animals and frighten away new ceph keepers.

Greg

 

[alexfevery]

you know thats not what I said,

and this is in no way a minimum,

If anybody wants the tank setup for how to keep an octopus from dying I can give it to you but the point is this is not the minimum at all.

 

[cuttlegirl]

Here is one thing I have learned from being landlocked for the past year and a half... Before living in Long Beach, I lived in Hawaii for three years. I have had a salt water tank since I was about 12 years old (I won't tell you how long ago that was ). It is sooo much cheaper when you live near the beach. It is also very easy to go to the beach quickly if something goes wrong (you run out of food, you need to do a water change, you need some more seaweed, the list goes on...)

When you are landlocked, you have to plan in advance. For example, I knew that my cuttlefish eggs were going to hatch, so I bought mysids online and had them shipped to me about a week ago. Meanwhile, the mysids are cannabilizing each other and the eggs haven't hatched. There's $35 down the drain, but I didn't want to take a chance and order the mysids after the cuttle eggs hatch and have to wait a couple of days. Also, I ran out of shore shrimp and while I ordered them on Monday, they aren't arriving until tomorrow. Luckily my adult cuttles eat frozen krill, but they were eating several shore shrimp a day and are a little upset that they aren't getting their favorite food. While the initial set up costs can vary, the biggest cost of keeping a ceph, at least for me, has been feeding it...

 

[DHyslop]

you know thats not what I said,
and this is in no way a minimum,

I have kept the same type and size of octopus in a 100, 50, 30 and even 20 gallon tank and they all do fine

This is absurd. I guess if anyone would like to follow Alex's advice; get a bimac and put it in a 20 gallon tank, go for it! Caveat emptor!

Perhaps Nancy would be so kind as to post the picture of Ollie before he climbed the Empire State Building?

Dan

 

[cthulhu77]

you know thats not what I said,

and this is in no way a minimum,

If anybody wants the tank setup for how to keep an octopus from dying I can give it to you but the point is this is not the minimum at all.

Then why did you post it?

Once again, you must realize that people read these forums to learn about octopus, octopus's, octopii (or whatever makes you happy)...and you can not present unfounded information and expect everyone to go "oh, o.k.".

I understand that you have had some success with keeping your octo's in tanks that were not done to the normal standards. Fine. But you have to think about the bulk of the Tonmo crowd not having the same access to natural seawater, natural food, etc that you do.
Like Cuttlegirl has stated, living inland changes everything. Our care charts and articles are based on a vast amount of knowledge, spanning a lot of years, for the best results in keeping cephs.
Anyone can keep a bichir. Not everyone can breed them.



Greg

 

[Nancy]

Here's Ollie

She was one of several bimacs that got rather large (but was very friendly). I found that both the NRCC and Octopets reported differences in sizes of adult bimacs. Some do get much larger than others.

Nancy

 

[alexfevery]

thats a big octopus,

That octopus would not be happy in a 30 gallon tank. But he also will not fit inside a tissue box.

of all of you saying that theres a 50 gallon minimum for any octopus I would bet most(if not all) of you have never attempted keeping one in a 30 gallon. You havent tried it, so how can you say it is, to quote one person, "absured". I have kept many octopuses over time, half of them in 30 gallon tanks, all of them Bimacs. I had one that almost made it to 3 and a half years old in a 30 gallon tank with no skimmer, but that one I got as a new hatchling from a friend. Just try it before you cover your ears and scream lies!

 

[sorseress]

Ok, this is getting ridiculous! No one here has called you a liar. They have pointed out that the chances of success for your method to work for most people who read this forum is slim to none, whether because of lack of constant access to the ocean from which the octopus came, or because of inexperience. You say you have a lot of experience in keeping octos. Fine. The people who have been responding to you have between them many, many years of experience, and have helped many people learn what they need to learn to not only keep an octopus alive, but to ensure that it has the quality of life which is as good as it can possibly be. That is the least we can do for these little animals who are in our care. It is also our responsibility on Tonmo to give the best possible advice on how others can do the same. All of us take that responsibility seriously.

 

[Nancy]

Let's clarify some points.

First of all, yes, even TONMO.com people have kept bimacs in 30 gallon tanks. That was before we realized that they needed more room and some of them would grow large enough to require the 50 gallons as a minimum. Most octo keepers want to provide room to explore and play, so we find many putting bimacs and similar-sized octopuses in even larger tanks. What we're aiming at is "good animal husbandry", not the minimum we can get by with.

Secondly, how big is a tissue box? I guess I haven't bought tissue for years, but boxes were various sizes, and yes, Ollie would have fit in some of them.

Thirdly, you say you kept a bimac for almost 3 1/2 years. This baffles me, since the longest lifespan I've heard of (and not verified) up till now is 1 1/2 years, in a lab somewhere. Bimacs are a few months old when their owners get them, and it's an accomplishment to have them live with you for 10 or 11 months. Over three years is getting into the lifespan of a Giant Pacific Octopus, not a bimac. There must be some confusion about the species or about the lifespan.

Nancy

 

[DHyslop]

You havent tried it, so how can you say it is, to quote one person, "absured".

Have you tried keeping the hundred cats in the trailer? That's probably a poor analogy, here's a better one: You could keep one cat alive for years in a pet carrier as long as it had food and water. You're telling me that if I haven't tried it I shouldn't knock it.

The bottom line is that Ollie was a big bimac and there's no way in Hell that he would be happy in a 30 gallon tank. According to scientists, getting a big bimac isn't rare. So is it a good idea to get a bimac and put him in a 30, or even a 20 as you suggest in one of your posts? You're right, I do think it is "absured."

Dan

 

[Illithid]

I would bet most(if not all) of you have never attempted keeping one in a 30 gallon. You haven't tried it, so how can you say it is, to quote one person, "absured".

I uploaded a large photo so that you can click on it to zoom and see this is a bimac from the color, mantle shape and size.

This is my 1st octo in a 30 gallon from back in April 1992 (the second photo is the date stamp from the back put on by the film processor (Eckerd's).

(This is the same tank that I have in the image gallery with my cuttlefish -Bill.)

I kept the octo in the 30 gallon and have since learned better. He did live until he died of old age. But I would never do it again. He constantly ran the edges of the tank, like a caged lion. I figured that he didn't need swimming space like a regular fish. These animals are much more intelligent than all fish, and need more room. Not to mention keeping up with the bio load was awful. I had over 4 years of saltwater experience back then, not counting freshwater, so I still wasn't a newbie like most people asking for info here.

By the way...someone needs to tell the NRCC that they are wasting their time with all that equipment and effort. Also inform Dr. James Wood that he didn't need that doctorate and that his husbandry articles are incorrect.

 

[cthulhu77]

I kept a GPO in a five gallon tank for two decades.

No really.

About as believable, no?

I never meant to insinuate that Alex was a liar at all. Just that the minimum care standards are not what we are striving for...we are looking to expand the knowledge of cephs, not limit it. I hear this argument for lowered filtration, smaller tank size, substandard cycling all the time. Reef keepers who don't need bright lights, skimmers? Nah. Fish keepers who feed nothing but frozen. Sure.

Then they see a really well kept tank, and they can't figure out why their's doesn't look good. Hmmm.

 

[Phuntoon]

My real worry here is how quickly the Octo was introduced to the new tank. Even if you are very careful with the setup and match temp and other perameters exactly to the ocean, transporting and moving the live rock and such will always cause some die-off of bacteria and other organisms from within the rock creating substandard water conditions. IMO there is always a cycle even if it is a small one. When I setup my 3 gallon pico reef I used: live rock, live sand, and even "live" water (which I took from my very well established Octo tank) and there was still a cycle. It was very short, 2 to 3 weeks, but still a cycle regardless with a standard diatom bloom and all. I'm always up for hearing other peoples experiences in keeping Octopus, and most times you can takes little bits of that information to use in your own regimen. All in all, I think Alex was just trying to help especially for those who don't have a ton of cash. He's just using methods so very unorthadox from what we've all seen as the standard. So he's having to endure some heat from the Tonmo crew. So Alex, as someone else said earlier, this isn't a personal stab at you. This is all about the Octopus and it's well being that we're so worried about.

Also Nancy, Damn, I didn't know Ollie was THAT big until I saw a point of reference. (your hand) That's a huge Bimac!! I would almost say a 50 gallon is too small and a 30 gallon WOULD be a tissue box.


Paul

 

[DHyslop]

Then they see a really well kept tank, and they can't figure out why their's doesn't look good. Hmmm.

It reminds me of another member who has posted pictures of a 30 gallon eclipse that he keeps bimacs in. Everything in the tank is covered with green hair and every other nuisance algae imaginable. The kind of tank everyone should be able to look at--experienced or not--and see nutrient export issues.

Before keeping any animal, we have to ask ourselves what kind of a home we can really give it. It isn't enough to do the bare minimum to keep it alive just so we can save a few bucks. An animal shouldn't be punished for its owner's lack of resources or interest.

Dan

 

[marinebio_guy]

I think everyone is making too big a deal out of this. First, if his system works for him that is great, but it might not work for everyone. I've kept bimacs is a 30 gallon tank with just an undergravel filter and it did fine, it lived a long time and laid eggs. Who is to say what size tank is best. I've seen people post about wanting to keep or have kept officinalis in 150g tanks which I think is way to small I also have seen it done in public aquariums. However, officinalis can grow as large as 15-18inch which would be way to small for a 150g but in those tanks they do not get that large only maybe 6-8inches. A lot of animals grow to the size of there tank. Now that may be wrong to keep it in a tank that small morally, but is it bad for the animal, possibly? I could probably keep a dwarf octo in a glass bottle for his who life if I changed the water every two minute, but who would want to. People have different skill levels a person who is just starting out should not start off with a bare bones system. However, someone with more knowledge could do it. Each animal has its own requirments and curtain species of octos can deal with confined spaces (bimacs) because they live in dens while I would not keep a wonderpus/mimic in a small tank because they are more nomadic. Anyway those are my thoughts please don't shoot me or anything