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[Locked]: Controversial thread on low-end ceph keeping

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cthulhu77

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alexfevery;80962 said:
but skimming may have detrimental effects in the long term health of the octopus.

*Crash Stop*

In the case here, where many people learning about reefkeeping and the care of cephs, please, please, please, give this line absolutely no credit.

So, if you vacuum your house, it effects your health? I suppose so does flushing the toilet or doing the dishes? Come on, get real.
 

monty

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:welcome: And I think you've leapt into an interesting discussion. I think you have hit a nerve a bit (your initial post suggested that you expected that to happen.) I think your results are interesting, and worth considering, although I also agree with the responses that it's better for the animals to avoid encouraging people to do the "bare minimum." Without meaning to question your experience, there are a lot of people who post here having bought an octopus without any preparation at all, so there is a lot of evidence that octos die often in some setups, and the recommended setups have largely evolved from that information. The fact that your setup seems to work as well is probably worth looking at, but as one person comparing your experience to the collective knowledge, you're in a bit of a strange position.

I think it's worth asking questions like "what is Alex doing that's better than the unprepared folks whose octos invariably die quickly?" and "Is it possible that some of the recommendations are more apocryphal than proven?" as well as "has Alex just been lucky?" On the other hand, Alex, you proposed a checklist that's an alternative to the traditional TONMO approach, rather than suggesting your experience be integrated into it somehow, which turns out to be a bit confrontational. I understand that you read a bunch of stuff here and found that it doesn't match your experience, so you wanted to present the alternative, but now that you have, I would encourage discussion of "how can we continue to give the best recommendations we can to octo owners."
 
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The sculpin will eat the food, and waste from the octo(debatable, IMO), but he will excrete that as waste himself. If he eats, that, then he isn't getting nutrients. Also, many beaches have laws about removing live rock, and living creatures. I'm sure if I saw a guy with a bucket, and a light attached to his forehead at midnight along the beaches, i'd be a little freaked out.

Cheap usually isn't better (if not worse) than going all out and doing things correctly. We are trying to mimic the ocean, and the ocean's protein skimmer is waves, which create foam, etc.
 
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:welcome: Alex,

I have a couple of questions... what is the temperature of the tank? You are recommending keeping Southern California marine life (I used to live in Long Beach for 14 years...). Cold water marine life is very different from the type of tanks that most people keep. This may account for some of the discrepancies on this thread. I know, I had a cold water tank for 10 years. I will say this about protein skimmers. I was unable to keep red sea urchins (Stronylocentrotus franciscanus successfully (longer than a week) until I added a protein skimmer. This also extended the life of sea hares (Aplysia) and sea cucumbers in my tank.

Other than that :welcome: and you will find us to be a lively bunch, dedicated to keeping cephalopods healthy and happy.
 

alexfevery

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Ok, first off about the protien skimmers, I DID NOT SAY that I am sure it hurts your tank. I am just stating that I have not noticed any diference in the longevity or behavior of octopuses with them, then those without them. and this is a cold water tank setup not a tropical, PS's function diferently depending on the water temperature

and cuttlegirl makes an excelent point, I absolutly do not recomend this setup for anything but a cold non tropical tank. You will almost definately kill any tropical water fish or octopuses if you use my set up with warm water.

Yes, I would expect sea urchins need good skiming because of how their resperation system works.

the tempereture in all my octopus tanks at this moment is 68 degrees farenheight.

Sculpins do eat octopus fecal matter, and they also eat, pieces of food the octopus leaves, the reason I sugest them is that when they excrete waste, it is in a small solid clump that sinks to the botom and stays together which is very easy to scoop out with a net.

some beaches do have laws about removing animals, and I dont advocate breaking the laws. Live rock is extremly expensive though, and there is several hundred tons of it at the tide pools where i live.
 

cthulhu77

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Cold water means you don't have to keep the tank water clean and pure?
Hogwash.

Look, I am not attacking you in a personal sense at all, and the fact that you have had some limited success with your methods is fine and dandy, but we do have to flavour the topic with hard won experience. We have had members keep octopus's (you can spell the multiple any way you want, it's all correct) in a variety of tank setups...some going very, very frugal and being happy with six months, to those of us who have decided to make sure we are providing the BEST POSSIBLE habitat for the captive octopii.

Are your experiences valid? Of course. Is it a guideline for people who are new to keeping cephalopods? No. You have to remember, there is nothing wrong with new ideas (remember the use of skimmers in the 70's?), but they have to be proven, lest they kill off a number of captive animals and frighten away new ceph keepers.

Greg
 

alexfevery

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you know thats not what I said,

and this is in no way a minimum,

If anybody wants the tank setup for how to keep an octopus from dying I can give it to you but the point is this is not the minimum at all.
 
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Here is one thing I have learned from being landlocked for the past year and a half... Before living in Long Beach, I lived in Hawaii for three years. I have had a salt water tank since I was about 12 years old (I won't tell you how long ago that was :shock: ). It is sooo much cheaper when you live near the beach. It is also very easy to go to the beach quickly if something goes wrong (you run out of food, you need to do a water change, you need some more seaweed, the list goes on...)

When you are landlocked, you have to plan in advance. For example, I knew that my cuttlefish eggs were going to hatch, so I bought mysids online and had them shipped to me about a week ago. Meanwhile, the mysids are cannabilizing each other and the eggs haven't hatched. There's $35 down the drain, but I didn't want to take a chance and order the mysids after the cuttle eggs hatch and have to wait a couple of days. Also, I ran out of shore shrimp and while I ordered them on Monday, they aren't arriving until tomorrow. Luckily my adult cuttles eat frozen krill, but they were eating several shore shrimp a day and are a little upset that they aren't getting their favorite food. While the initial set up costs can vary, the biggest cost of keeping a ceph, at least for me, has been feeding it...
 

DHyslop

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alexfevery;80978 said:
you know thats not what I said,
and this is in no way a minimum,

alexfevery;80962 said:
I have kept the same type and size of octopus in a 100, 50, 30 and even 20 gallon tank and they all do fine

This is absurd. I guess if anyone would like to follow Alex's advice; get a bimac and put it in a 20 gallon tank, go for it! Caveat emptor!

Perhaps Nancy would be so kind as to post the picture of Ollie before he climbed the Empire State Building?

Dan
 

cthulhu77

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alexfevery;80978 said:
you know thats not what I said,

and this is in no way a minimum,

If anybody wants the tank setup for how to keep an octopus from dying I can give it to you but the point is this is not the minimum at all.



Then why did you post it?

Once again, you must realize that people read these forums to learn about octopus, octopus's, octopii (or whatever makes you happy)...and you can not present unfounded information and expect everyone to go "oh, o.k.".

I understand that you have had some success with keeping your octo's in tanks that were not done to the normal standards. Fine. But you have to think about the bulk of the Tonmo crowd not having the same access to natural seawater, natural food, etc that you do.
Like Cuttlegirl has stated, living inland changes everything. Our care charts and articles are based on a vast amount of knowledge, spanning a lot of years, for the best results in keeping cephs.
Anyone can keep a bichir. Not everyone can breed them.



Greg
 
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