Finding Nemo

[Fujisawas Sake]

Are you watching it subtitled or dubbed?

Dubbed. I just don't get the all the stuff with Kai's, and the TA's and the large robot thing with the feather head-dress.

I also had trouble with Gundam Wing but that was because I was only seeing every second epsiode.

KRin

Gasaraki and Gundam (All of them) are a bit confusing because they rely heavily on political intrigue. Its been awhile since I've seen Gasaraki, but its pretty much about the use of ancient armor-clad demons being used in modern warfare.

 

[krin]

[
Gasaraki and Gundam (All of them) are a bit confusing because they rely heavily on political intrigue. Its been awhile since I've seen Gasaraki, but its pretty much about the use of ancient armor-clad demons being used in modern warfare.

I finally ordered "Spirited Away" on video last night - it's out here in June 16th

I have a huge facination with Japan and its culture. I have managed one overnight stay in Japan - got to walk around the hotel!

Thanks for the political lead - I'll do some reading up and see if it helps. Half knowledge can be more of a bother at times! I understood the emotional story line but it was the deeper storyline that I was misunderstanding.

Does "Gasaraki" actually mean anythign in Japanese.

KRin

 

[nanoteuthis]

BABYLON 5 was incredible! The Big Calamari and I got hooked on it when it appeared in reruns on the Sci-Fi Channel. It was more consistently good than ST: VOYAGER, and infinitely better than ENTERPRISE, which IMHO ran out of creative ideas after the one where Trip was impregnated by the alien woman (one of the few truly interesting episodes of that steadily flagging series). On the other hand, B5 was often positively spiritual, which I loved.

KRin, I would like to hear about when you met the head writer of B5 -- I don't remember his name, but I would consider him a genius for creating such a complex, believable future universe.

I also enjoyed the first two seasons of Sci-Fi's FARSCAPE, though I lost interest after the magnificent "blue priestess" Zhann went away. (Do you detect a penchant for all things spiritual on the were-squid's part? Yes, you do ) And then there was Sci-Fi's LEXX -- off the wall, over the top, raunchy as hell, and lots of fun even though half the time I had no idea what was going on!

My favorite animated Disney feature? Hard to say. (If imports are included, I'd pick SPIRITED AWAY, though Disney Studios were more agents than creators in that case.) Probably the original FANTASIA, though THE LION KING would be way up there -- the opening of the film alone ("Circle of Life") was one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. And the Respighi "Pines of Rome" segment of FANTASIA 2000 (the one with the flying whales).

I think of Walt Disney as the entertainment equivalent of Bill Gates. He had some talent himself, but his real forté was finding, encouraging, and exploiting the exceptional talents of others.... i.e., a master headhunter.

from your friendly neighborhood
Tani

 

[Phil]

KRin, I would like to hear about when you met the head writer of B5 -- I don't remember his name, but I would consider him a genius for creating such a complex, believable future universe.

J Michael Stransinski was his name. I'm not sure that I should admit this publically, but I met him too. It was in Blackpool about six years ago and sadly? have his autograph. I totally agree that it was the best sci-fi series ever made as it really was a novel conceived for TV with a beginning, middle and end. Characters evolved and developed, empires rose and fell, and it all came to decent conclusion. Pity the last year was so drawn out, but this was a fault of the politics behind the programme, a bit too detailed to go into here, but still great viewing.

Voyager........oh I'm sorry, I'm nodding off.

 

[nanoteuthis]

It was in Blackpool about six years ago and sadly? have his autograph.

Why "sadly"? Is he no longer among the living? Just curious....

TD

 

[Fujisawas Sake]

J. Michael Straczinski is dead?! Wow... I had no idea... Sad, really.

As for Walt Disney, everyone does know that he has been dead for millenia now, right?

As far as "Finding Nemo": Its good. Its fun. Thumbs up from yours truly

Sushi and Sake,

John

 

[Phil]

J. Michael Straczinski is dead?! Wow... I had no idea...

Er......JMS certainly isn't dead. He's currently working on a new series and is scripting a series of comic books.

I mean't sadly as in boasting of owning sci-fi stars autographs is a bit, well, nerdy!

Better scotch that rumour!

 

[tonmo]

I don't think me and my family will be going to see Nemo, but we will catch it on video.

From what I heard from a neighbor -- as Disney tends to do, they once again forgot that an audience of 3 and 5 year olds are not as jaded as the rest of the world. Read no further if you don't want the spoiler! (i.e., if you don't want to be told about part of the story before you've had the chance to see it)... Not much of a spoiler I don't think, but always like to warn...

I guess an early scene has a family / school of fish happily swimming along and enjoying the day. Before you know it, a shark swoops in and eats the entire family except one.

End spoiler!

This is HEAVY stuff for young kids. I don't understand why Disney simply can't make a movie that *is* fun, all the way through. Well, I guess I do -- it's all about the $$$. But all I can tell you that I know my kids would enjoy a completely "happy fun" movie far more than the extreme drama that they subject young kids to today -- if only for the reason that it would be such a rarity. Most parents don't realize, or don't care, thus fueling the indifference that ultimately translates into adulthood! Some children's TV shows do it well (eg, Blue's Clues or Oswald the Octopus -- always calm, pleasant, with minor, interesting problems for the characters to work out. Not scenes of shocking, tragic death).

Disney has done this over and over agian. The Lion King probably did it with the most grace (the death of Simba's father), and I think it is among the few death-scene movies that I'm comfortable having my kids watch because it's really such a great movie and the death of Mufasa served as Simba's full inspiration, so it was quite pertinent and poignant.

Like I said, we'll get it on video, because I'm sure my kids will ultimately enjoy it -- and of course balance is healthy.... Goes back to the discussion of why good things should possibly increase, but mediocre things should stay constant. (if you didn't see that thread then nevermind)

But I can see it in their eyes when Disney gives their scenes their famously macabre touch -- they don't fully understand it and sometimes it scares them a little too much -- and that's not fun. Growing up is hard enough without Disney subjecting them to complex and confusing (even for adults) emotional issues.

There's a line somewhere between being an over-protective, oppressive parent vs. not protecting/supporting your child enough from things that they are not yet equipped for (and really don't need to be, but even if they do, I don't believe I want Disney to be the educator in that arena).

~ Fin ~

 

[cthulhu77]

Hmmm...some interesting points regarding Disney's macabre touch...I certainly can't talk from experience (yet) about the effect on kids due to a cartoon death. I was going to say that I grew up watching violent cartoons, and reading Grimms fairy tales, etc...and look at me!
Kind of shooting myself in the foot though, right?
I certainly agree with not letting life get "bambified" (that is a technical term, I am sure any academics out there will understand) it is disconcerting to have children believing that the wild kingdom is some sort of la-la land...that's why we have things like the little girl who was bitten by a western diamondback rattlesnake last month, she just wanted to talk to it!
Yikes!
Kids shows like "croc hunter" or its spinoffs seem to do a good job though...except every little girl in the second grade class I went to give a talk to last week had a crush on Steve Irwin!
Greg

 

[tonmo]

it is disconcerting to have children believing that the wild kingdom is some sort of la-la land...

Oh yeah, I definitely agree there. Which makes an argument for both sides, really. Meaning, I don't want my kids to watch "happy fun talking bunny" movies all the time, either. It's no more healthy than being inundated with disturbing scenes such as when bambi's mother was shot dead (off "camera", mercifully -- actually, I guess that scene was done quite tastefully as well... that scene is probably one of the prototype ingredients in the "Disney Formula").

Death and pain are an important, real subjects and I certainly don't want my kids to think that bad things don't happen (although I still believe that they should stop happening - ha). I guess I just don't want Disney being the primary source of "education" on that subject.

I suppose a good argument could be made that such movies can serve as a healthy frame of reference for a discussion with your children about such subjects after the movie... But I'm afraid the visual impressions made by animated films are so strong, that they may overshadow any attempt at an "intellectual" (if you will) discussion about the subject.

 

[Architeuthoceras]

Happy Meal Nemo Octo

Ebay Happy Meal
A small pink octo from the golden arches, with seven other Nemo toys.



Note: eBay link edited by tonmo to make it TONMO.com-friendly

 

[Clem]

I guess an early scene has a family / school of fish happily swimming along and enjoying the day. Before you know it, a shark swoops in and eats the entire family except one.

Hooray!

This is a fine discussion to have. Yet, like so many discussions of child- rearing and psychology, it is being conducted without the input of the nominal objects of concern: children. American adults love to talk about what's best for children, but seldom ask them the sorts of direct questions that they are fully equipped to answer (and much prefer to the drawn-out, allusive investigations that characterize the adults of the species).

Kids are as curious about death as they are about all the life-pocesses they observe (and participate in). Depictions of death, be they fictional or actual, may very well upset them, but condescension tends to upset them just as much. I suspect that American parents who fulminate about incidences of sex, death and profanity in the culture are less concerned with their perceived impact on children, than they are with the "burden" parents must bear in explaining them.

Besides, a shark eating fishies is greatly more comprehensible than the abstract human butchery that permeates our "entertainments" and leads our news-broadcasts.

I'm holding off on viewing "Nemo" for another reason: they somehow failed to include a giant squid. A scandalous omission.

:x

Clem

 

[tonmo]

This is a fine discussion to have. Yet, like so many discussions of child- rearing and psychology, it is being conducted without the input of the nominal objects of concern: children.

Fair enough... kids, chime in!

I will say though that this is not commentary without interaction with kids... FWIW, I do get the direct feedback from my own (both in words and other forms of communication), which is what I base this opinion on.

Condescension tends to upset them just as much.

I agree... condescension doesn't work anywhere. But I think we're talking about a slightly older age group -- my concerns with Disney are with the very young. There is a tremendous world of difference (emotionally) between a 2 year old, a 5 year old and an 8 year old. In fact, the difference is stark from year to year.

Some parents even take their 3 year olds to go see Harry Potter, or the Star Wars movies, which I'm sure even the directors of those films would say is not such a hot idea. Kids at that age are pretty much along for the ride. They (correctly) count on their parents to steer them in the right direction.

The older kids get, the more independence they have, and that's all good. IMO they should be encouraged to explore whatever interests them, within certain boundries of course. (Sex, drugs, etc. -- those boundries are there not because of the burden of explaining (though your point is taken) -- but because it does pose serious dangers for the kids).

I think a lot of parents see "Disney animated feature" and think "great family event for my young children!" -- which is precisely Disney's aim... I personally believe that Disney continues to evolve in such a way that it embraces more and more "adult" (for lack of a better word) themes.

Besides, a shark eating fishies is greatly more comprehensible than the abstract human butchery that permeates our "entertainments" and leads our news-broadcasts.

Agreed 100%. But that of course doesn't make it OK, and doesn't diminish the fact that a shark devouring fish (well, more than just fish -- this was a family of human characters in fish form) is disturbing to a 4 year old. Maybe not every 4 year old, but I'd bet a whole lot of them.

The news and "entertainment" programs you allude to shouldn't come within a mile of very young children, IMO. I'm not suggesting there should necessarily be some kind of "cut off" age for any of these things... for the most part I say it's best left up to the family unit to determine what works for their lifestyle. But overall, parents should definitely be discerning about "children's" movies and entertainment, IMO....

I'm holding off on viewing "Nemo" for another reason: they somehow failed to include a giant squid. A scandalous omission.

And you would think they could have squeezed in a Mesonychoteuthis somewhere before the final cut. But they deserve some props for Pearl the octopus...

 

[Clem]

Tony,

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with subject matter that disturbs small children, or with exposing small children to such things. I do take issue with subjecting the very young to violent, upsetting imagery devoid of emotional consequence.

It might be helpful to look at the Japanese example. Japanese children see an awful lot of violent, scary imagery in anime and manga, but that imagery is usually not consequence-free. When people die, the survivors experience anger, grief and loss. Significantly, Japanese society is far less lethally violent than our own, owing to a host of factors, but the twinning of violence and consequence in their fictional media probably has something to do with it.

I'm not surprised that you engage your children directly when choosing entertainments, but I'd venture to say that most American parents don't. What draws my ire is the process by which the best, most sophisticated children's cinema (and literature) is bowdlerized to coddle the sensibilities of adults.

A four year-old will (probably) be upset by the stunningly swift annihilation of a fish-family by a shark, but that upset has a complementary component: if that four year-old's best friend's family is wiped out by a drunk driver, he or she will have an emotional reference point for an otherwise incomprehensible event; as a consequence, they'll be better able to comfort their friend. To paraphrase Thomas Harris: if random violence is a virus, than it's depiction in art may be the vaccine we use to defend ourselves. Frankly, I'm for giving children all the tools they can get their hands on.

As for the absence of huge squid in "Nemo," perhaps even PIXAR couldn't come up with a way to make 'em cute.



Clem

 

[tonmo]

A four year-old will (probably) be upset by the stunningly swift annihilation of a fish-family by a shark, but that upset has a complementary component: if that four year-old's best friend's family is wiped out by a drunk driver, he or she will have an emotional reference point for an otherwise incomprehensible event; as a consequence, they'll be better able to comfort their friend.

Great point and well said! However... To reiterate an earlier point of my own, I don't think I want my kids to have Disney as a frame of reference for such events. I'm not sure I fully agree with Disney's simplified sense of justice and their depiction of certain "bad" and "good" characters. Life is much more complicated than Disney presents it to be. And I'm sure Nemo swam off to a happy sunset of sorts, and in real life, that 4-year-old's best friend whose family was just wiped out by a drunk driver will not have his/her larger problems resolved within 90 minutes as Nemo did.

There are some valuable lessons in kid's entertainment, but a lot of them are a far too distilled, compacted and simplified to fit the medium's mold, not to fit reality. I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if kids weren't bombarded with such images and themes several times a day via TV, merchandising and the like. It's just too much IMO.

Also, to an earlier point I believe by Greg, I watched lots of Bugs, Daffy, Wiley Coyote, Tom & Jerry and Woody Woodpecker growing up, to name just a few. To Greg's point, I did not drop anvils on my sisters' heads or put explosives in my dad's mouth and masked it as a cigar, however, one of my sisters did jump off the roof of our house with an umbrella in hand in the infamous attempt to emulate Mary Poppins.

I had a friend a while ago who let his kid play DOOM with him, while listening to Rage Against the Machine, of all things. The 6-year-old would sing the song (if you know it) "Eff you I won't do what you tell me!" over and over again... but he knew it was a bad word, and he'd just kind of mumble the "eff" part (and RATM does no such cloaking or mumbling).

I thought that was quite a bit much... especially considering DOOM... remember what happens when you send a rocket launcher into an oil barrel with one of those monkey-men standing next to it?