• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Euthanasia

yeah, avoiding the creation of antibiotic-resistant pathogens is certainly an important concern, irrespective of the morality of pain and suffering questions.

Although I think you're probably right about the arm, I still think it's worth considering that "reflex" is normally discussed from sort of a vertebrate-centric point of view; it's frequently cited that there are more neurons in an octo's arms than there are in its brain... although I don't think anyone claims that the arms are conscious or anything, it does seem sort of likely that we sometimes over-apply our own experiences when we imagine what things are like for them...

Of course, I also have no idea if lizards feel pain when they drop their tails, for example...
 
Greg,
I'll differ with you on the antibiotic immunity issue (only for the specific example at hand!). In the case of a pet at the end of its life that will not be reproducing the point holds no water. If you had a 1,000,000 pets and tried preventitive measures in this situation you would not effect a single other creature and I am only suggesting the possible use based on a one time trial for this purpose and no other.

Given that as the strict criteria, and if antibiotics (tetracycline in this case) are given just before the start of the natural breakdown (not afer everything starts falling apart) provides the creature with a more comfortable end (ability to continue fighting skin infection even though it will not stop aging) then I would like to see others (particularly those in the position to record and evaluate) see if my one experience is repeatable.
 
Like I said, in cephalopods you would rarely run into the problem of immunity (unless you begin giving antibiotics too soon), but the practice of merely giving antibiotics out based on observations should be dealt with very carefully. I would not be surprised if all antibiotics for all animals are regulated within the next 10 years or so.

Why would you give antibiotics to the animal just before the start of the deterioration? No bacteria, presumably, would be present and you may actually be doing more harm than good.

If someone were to repeat your experiment, what types of variables were you analyzing? What are your exact goals? Merely a longer life, perhaps with fewer observable malformations? I am interested in at least looking at this subject in our next cuttlefish batch so I would like to know what you were exactly looking at.

Greg
 
Jean,
I knew clove oil is used to anesthetize seahorses for difficult pouch flushes but I never though about it for euthanasia. It does seem better to use a "sleep" drug than the freezing routine that is most often mentioned. I had a very hard time when Buttermilk was ill and it became apparent that I could not help her stop the infection. I am still not sure I could have put her to sleep but I was relieved when she finally died - very hard choices, I had her a long time.
 
Greg,
It is my very uneducated thinking from film observations, one experience with a seahorse and reading on the net that some animals deteriorate outwardly while others die from internal shutdown without the observed decay (just growing old). Needing answers for this kind of quandry, I am prone to biased (not scientific) conclusions. I don't have the facilities to test and control an idea but am not shy about presenting what I tried and the results with the caveat that my attempt may have no bearing on the outcome.

What I would like someone with facilities to try is a week long oral introduction to antibiotics (given the no reproduction while or after taking antibiotic limits) before the anticipated decay. The thinking is that the antibiotics may help the immune system during a critical time. With a test and control group the desired results would be that the test group would die from something similar to heart attack where the control group would deteriorate from bacteria. If there is any merit to my thinking I would expect the test group to live longer and appear healthier but not avoid death from old age. This assumes that the observable deterioration is bacterial and not circulation shutdown or some other internally induced reaction (cancer).
 
I agree I much prefer over anaethetising to freezing........but that's still better than decapitating which is used in some institutions :sad:

Anyhow an interesting paper is Moltchaniwskyj et al (2007) Ethical and welfare considerations when using cephalopods as experimental animals. Rev. Fish. Biol. Fisheries. vol 17, 455-476.


I have a pdf. Pm me if you want a copy.

J
 
Jean;104612 said:
I agree I much prefer over anaethetising to freezing........but that's still better than decapitating which is used in some institutions :sad:

How would one decapitate a cephalopod? It seems like that would involve extreme mangling, which doesn't sound very humane at all (although I guess it might be fast.) Bleh, maybe I don't even want to know :goofysca: but I must be missing something if it can be done in a way that anyone thinks is "humane."
 
It is an accepted and humane way of euthanasia for a direct blow to the head for fishes. Decapitation, as I understand it, involves severing the cerebral spine which will shut off all activity to the brain thereby killing the animal. The methods may sound barbaric but are quite effective in both cases.

Greg
 
monty;104614 said:
How would one decapitate a cephalopod? It seems like that would involve extreme mangling, which doesn't sound very humane at all (although I guess it might be fast.) Bleh, maybe I don't even want to know :goofysca: but I must be missing something if it can be done in a way that anyone thinks is "humane."

It's easier with squid and cuttlefish than with octopus...
 
cephalopod ethics and such paper

Mather JA, Anderson RC 2007) Ethics and invertebrates: a cephalopod perspective. Dis Aquat Organ. 75(2):119-29.

This paper first explores 3 philosophical bases for attitudes to invertebrates, Contractarian/Kantian, Utilitarian, and Rights-based, and what they lead us to conclude about how we use and care for these animals. We next discuss the problems of evaluating pain and suffering in invertebrates, pointing out that physiological responses to stress are widely similar across the animal kingdom and that most animals show behavioral responses to potentially painful stimuli. Since cephalopods are often used as a test group for consideration of pain, distress and proper conditions for captivity and handling, we evaluate their behavioral and cognitive capacities. Given these capacities, we then discuss practical issues: minimization of their pain and suffering during harvesting for food; ensuring that captive cephalopods are properly cared for, stimulated and allowed to live as full a life as possible; and, lastly, working for their conservation.

full PDF online:

http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao_oa/d075p119.pdf

as seen here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/help_me_out_here_fellow_academ.php

but the discussion there is about legalities of copying articles (which I do have opinions on as well, see http://tech.caltech.edu/Tech2.0/11_12_2007/article21.html ) rather than ethics of cephalopods care. Whether invertebrates should be required to pay for any journal articles they read is left as an exercise for the reader.
 

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