• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Ethics of octopi in captivity?

A couple other aspects of 'ethical' might be:

- 'Is it an ethical use of electricity to maintain an artificial marine habitat at home?' ... I actually ask myself this one on a regular basis, looking at my tropical freshwater tank with filter, air pump, heater and light, three of which run constantly. It makes me increasingly uncomfortable, especially with discussions of improving energy efficiency and clean energy sources (and, I confess, electricity costs), but so far I haven't broken it down because of the flip-side, which is, 'What happens to my animals, which appear to be healthy and happy (to the point of reproducing), if/when I do terminate the system and they go to new homes?'
- 'Is it ethical to support the suppliers who provide my equipment/animals? (perhaps depending on where you live and your ability to self-source materials/organisms)

I look forward very much to hearing about the ethics debate. Any chance of live-streaming some of the panels for those of us far, far away, Tony?

On the intelligence theme, I am currently reviewing a Master's thesis on the topic, which is quite interesting. I will try to encourage the student to make the content available to interested readers here somehow, if possible.
 
Good stuff Kat! I think it all hinges on what we mean by Ethical, and how far we want to push that sphere of consideration. Its not very difficult at all to see the entire current and traditional chain of custody that gets animals to end users as unethical in a meaningful way.
 
In the introduction of M.J. Wells' book Octopus: Physiology and Behaviour of an Advanced Invertebrate, he warns against the temptation for humans to make assumptions about the feelings or motives of octopus, and of likening octopus to humans. He points out that octopus and humans diverged from each other on the evolutionary tree so long ago, that any aparent similarities, like intelligence, are a coincidence, and should not be used to infer other similarities, like the ability to experience anything similar to human loneliness, boredom, social bonding (friendship), affection, or even hunger. He supports this by pointing out that octopus are not raised in a social context (family, tribe), but grow up alone, and may eat another of their species they happen to meet, as easily mate with it, and refuse available food for months after laying eggs, for no visible reason. That's not to say that octopus necessarily don't experience boredom, for example, just that we must not infer that they do, based on the fact the humans, and other relatively closely related animals (dogs, apes) would, under similar conditions. We are left to guess at their feelings, assuming they have any at all. Notwithstanding the idiom "happy as a clam", do unintelligent mollusks have feelings?

The bottom line is, that it is folly to try to guess what an octopus is feeling, but even so, we are morally obligated as animal keepers to make every effort to keep the animals under our care from suffering. I'm willing to believe that any animal that displays curiosity, and is motivated to explore and experiment, has some sort of negative response built in by evolution when it is unable to do so (for humans it's boredom). That's a leap of faith, but I'd rather err on the compassionate side. Is it "cruel" to confine an octopus, even if it has a reasonably large tank, and daily stimulation/interaction (enrichment)? As far as I'm concerned, there's no way of knowing. Does it enrich my life to do so - definitely yes. I'm not willing to forgo what I get out of keeping an octopus, just because of the chance that maybe the octopus is bored. I take reasonable steps to address the boredom issue, and in the absence of any evidence of suffering (constant escape attempts, chewed off limbs, alcohol abuse :smile:) I'm able to conclude that my octopus would rather be in my tank than in the ocean hiding from predators. I have to admit that there's a chance that my octopus is suffering, and that I simply can't tell, but that's a chance I'm willing to take.
 
As far as not "assuming" enjoyment, I will take exception. If an animal willingly comes forward for nonaggressive interaction with same or another species when food is not part of the interaction, IMO it highly likely that the animal finds the interaction positive. I will agree that mental pain is not something we are likely to isolate easily.
 
No. It is not ethically ok to keep an octopus in captivity. They are highly intelligent wild animals. They belong free. It is selfish and cruel to imprison them for our amusement. To love an octopus is to let it be free. Otherwise, we are nothing more than their wardens.
 
R138;180200 said:
No. It is not ethically ok to keep an octopus in captivity. They are highly intelligent wild animals. They belong free. It is selfish and cruel to imprison them for our amusement. To love an octopus is to let it be free. Otherwise, we are nothing more than their wardens.
Direct and to the point. :popcorn:

I actually agree with most of your points, but the phrase "for our amusement" doesn't take into account the value of better understanding these creatures. Study, science, etc.

...and I think "imprison" implies something more than "captivity".

So I still register as "not sure"... :hmm:
 
R138;180200 said:
No. It is not ethically ok to keep an octopus in captivity. They are highly intelligent wild animals. They belong free. It is selfish and cruel to imprison them for our amusement. To love an octopus is to let it be free. Otherwise, we are nothing more than their wardens.

I can understand this approach* as long as it is consistent. The only justification that really makes sense for 99% of hobbyists is "I like to have them in my home" as almost anything else is rationalization. Do you feel the same way about birds and fish? What about dogs, and if not, why is it different for domesticated animals?

*The discussion about highly intelligent aside for now at least.
 
Would I say that it is ethical to keep an octopus in captivity? Yes. Many animals have been kept in captivity for many reasons. We have learned a great deal of information from keeping these animals.

Earlier this year I helped a high school class get the set up they needed to raise an octopus. These students were in a high school aquatics class... These are OUR FUTURE! These are the kids that WILL protect the ocean in the future. These are the scientists that will create the type of "utopia" everyone seems to want. How do you think you get there? If my helping this school, because it was the WHOLE SCHOOL showing up and wanting to just get a glimpse, turned even one student towards wanting to learn teach and protect these animals… then I consider it time well spent. For me, this debate has been over for a long time.

And I would like to add, that people who say they shouldnt keep animals just to kill them, should be vegans if they arent already or at the very least go back to the dark ages where there werent a lot of grocery stores to get your food in the nicely packaged wraping... if you ever ate a carrot you commited murder... it too was raised to be killed and the carrot is the root... which means the plant died... just food for thought... no pun intended lol.
 
Interesting topic...

After doing a major project on redesigning the NY state aquarium (coney island aquarium) for a college class to make it so it emulated the natural ocean and allowed people to experience the ocean and animals in a more interactive and educational way, the assistant supervisor of the animal behaviorist department spoke with me about the whole thing and touched on the fact that aquariums in general, are a very good thing for all animals they keep. Man is destroying the earth and pollution has affected our environment...and still is as we speak. Aquariums are an example of man trying to correct himself and allow animals to thrive and live in a safe and nurtering environment...while educating people at the same time.

Im not so sure I agree about the comments on octopus not being so smart compared to dogs, other mammels, ect. They have been known to have an equivalent mentality of a house cat and treat pet owners as if...they are the owner by showing enthusiastic responses. They look you straight in the eye, have short and LONG term memory allowing them to remember certain individuals by their facial features and also allow them to remember where their dens are under the sea when they go out to hunt. As opposed to dogs who need to be praised with treats for training, Octopuses have been seen to develop learning abilities by observation. They process information visually and demonstrate learning curves which is pretty fascinating.


Dr. Jean...cephalopod biologist on the Discovery show "Ultimate Guide: Octopus" showed skepticism in thinking the octopus was actually intelligent...stating that they show complex behaviors and intelligent behaviors and because of that, their behaviors may be fixed (complex) and pattern-orientated like many other animals. In saying this she said some octopuses can open up jars and some dont...but she didnt touch on the reports of octopus demonstrating their ability to learn and adapt each time a problem is presented to them time and time again. Many octopus may not do the same as other do...but thats another reason why their so amazing...because they all have different personalities.
 
Thales;180207 said:
I can understand this approach* as long as it is consistent. The only justification that really makes sense for 99% of hobbyists is "I like to have them in my home" as almost anything else is rationalization. Do you feel the same way about birds and fish? What about dogs, and if not, why is it different for domesticated animals?

*The discussion about highly intelligent aside for now at least.

Funny you mention domesticated animals. They were essentially bred as human companions, and to unleash them on the wild would actually be the cruel thing. Not only have they lost their survival instincts, but in many cases (for example, feral cats), they wreak havoc on the environment.
 
The discussion brings about an interesting experiment. If one can assume that the domestic animals we typically keep would (and IMO do if you think about these animals returning home when the opportunity to run free presents itself) choose domestication over preditors, parasites and hunting a food supply would an octopus do the same if given the opportunity. Designing an experiment would be difficult but interesting.
 
Wow...Very interesting thread. I also opt for yes & no...some people should not attempt to keep them and it is cruel and unethical if they are ignorant as to their care. I love the educational aspect that Sabrina mentions. This should be a very interesting discussion come october and that would be awesome to be able to set up a webcam so those that are unable to attend can participate.
 

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