• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Ethical Considerations for Keeping Octopus in Captivity

The most common method for using chemicals to collect octopus is usually urea or uric acid. Smelly, but efficient.
 
robyn;88661 said:
Monty, here's an excellent article co-authored by Hal Caswell

Got it! Thanks! I only read a bit of it so far, but it looks good...

- M
 
According to my source who is an importer, cyanide use is still rife in certain areas. However, perhaps it is a misnomer and that squirting anything down the holes to flush out beasties is getting called that? That's my best guess...
 
I let this thread brew for a while before I said anything, I bounced it off some other people... thanks :smile:

There are a lot of great points here and it is the necessary evil. This is exactly the kind of stuff we should be examining here and exactly the sort of stuff that a fledgling side of home aquaculture needs to address.
I haven’t been very active on the TONMO.com forums for a while now. Why? Quite simply because I don't keep cephalopods anymore.
As someone who has a purpose built heated shed with more than forty aquariums, surely at least one tank could have an octopus or cuttlefish? The answer is no.

I bought my last octopus in 2003 and in 2005 I took 6 baby Sepia bandensis which were hatched from eggs by a fellow TONMO.com member.
In 2003 I tried to order two Octopus vulgaris through the local fish importer, at which I was an employee of at the time. The exporter actually sent two blue rings instead! That pretty much was the last straw.

During my main flow of keeping octopuses I probably ordered somewhere in the region of 30 over 3 years. A dozen arrived DOA. Some were full grown dwarves and died within a couple of weeks. Others lived a few months. I also had attempts at rearing baby octopuses from gravid females who laid eggs in my tanks.
Point is, now I DON'T think it’s worth it and would rather that the octopuses stayed in the sea. I am not taking any moral high ground here because I still keep lots and lots of tropical fish, probably in the region of 100 species or more. Some of which are very rare in the trade. BUT at least I am breeding these fish and it's somewhere in the region of 3 or 4 new species per month.

To clarify, I can still buy fish at trade prices because I worked in the trade for some ten years or so and when I buy fish, I buy them 10 or more at a time. This means I am fairly assured of getting both sexes. My aim, as it always is, is to breed the fish. I now supply local shops and my importer with about twelve species of fish exclusively. The importer DOES NOT import those particular species from the wild anymore!

So basically that is a 10% success rate. So far... I have another 3 or 4 species that *should* breed in March.

This isn't meant to sound bigheaded, but I hold a LOT of clout with my local shops and importers. If I was at the LFS or importers and he ordered a zebra octopus and I turned it down and told him why, he wouldn't order them again. This isn't just a guess by the way. It has held true on several occasions; even just last week when all these ‘zebras’ started to appear again.

I don’t order them. I don’t buy them when I do see them. I offer advice freely and always point to this website when I can. Is this being morally strong or acting purely in the animal’s best interest and therefore also the hobby’s? Greg’s Hogg Island Boa is a good example of when things go wrong, you could also look at red ear terrapins or problems associated with certain importers bringing in species of ‘monster’ fish like Pangassius (adult at 6 feet), Phractocephalus (adult at 6 feet), Psuedoplatystoma (adult at 6 feet), Arapaima (adult at 9 feet) and so on and so on… They sell these things at sizes of 4” in length! Whatever you may think, you can vote with your wallet and not buying these animals DOES make a difference. Let me point you to the case of dyed and tattooed fish in the UK… it is now so well publicised and frowned upon by the public through education of the barbaric practice, that there are hardly any stockist who would dare to sell them!!! Let alone the recent craze of tail docking fish from the far-east for the sake of vanity! Imagine taking your pet fish out of the water and with no anaesthetic, cutting off its tail! It has had articles published in magazines about how you can do this at home! See here… Fishkeeping News - Practical Fishkeeping disturbing pictures warning!!! (edit: direct link no longer functional)

Some points on capture and exporting.
Richard did briefly describe the scenario in regards how animals make it to us as per Tony’s question but I think it glossed over a lot of issues…
E.g. many people who capture elusive animals like octopus still use cyanide or other chemicals. They basically dive down to an octopus’ den and squirt from a bottle into the den until it comes dashing out and they catch it with a net.

This practise is still widespread in SE Asia and well documented online, just Google it! It is banned in many countries for obvious reasons but still rife. I wonder how many ‘mystery’ cephalopod deaths could be attributed to chemical capture? A hell of a lot I’d guess!!!

Then, these normally small, family businesses have to keep the animal alive for a while until the exporter can arrive to collect it. They basically keep them in anything that will hold water. I have seen it for myself and it is pretty much light years away from the tanks we have set up and ranges from plastic buckets to old rusty bathtubs… what does metal do to cephs? Kills them.

So a collector might have to keep the animal for a week or two in substandard conditions until the exporter picks them up, then they get moved to the exporter’s facility. They might sit there for another couple of weeks until a particular order arrives for that species. During this time the animals are rarely, if ever, fed. That is because a 20 – 40 hour flight to the UK or USA might be less fatal if the animal doesn’t defecate in its own water… better not feed it then, eh? Also bear in mind that 90% of a cephalopod’s respiration produces ammonia and that being in a small bag for 20 – 40 hours is sure going to produce a lot of ammonia! Oh yeah, and they might also produce ink in their bag if they get stressed, again leading to DOAs. Really, what chance to these poor buggers have?

I have always been 100% behind the selling of captive bred stock so we can cut out the whole wild caught scenario. You won’t get any better a thrill from keeping a Wunderpus than a CB bimaculoides! Better yet, buy them as eggs as in the case of Sepia!

Now, once the animal eventually reaches its way to the country it’s going to, it is checked by customs where necessary and acclimatised to a new tank. In most cases the octopus is on sale as of the next day, or even the same day in some cases! Then off to a LFS, then from there, having been acclimatised yet again, on to a third tank in a buyer’s home. The animal may or may not have been cyanide caught and has probably gone through at least three different tanks in as many days! It might not have been fed for several weeks? Is the trade in marine animals fair and ethical? No, pretty damn far from it!

I think that the following statement ’The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2)’ is appalling statistics. So out of 18 imported cephalopods only 12 lasted more than a day? How long did the rest survive? What killed the others? What lesson was learned there? What would be termed a success? Half living a month? 2 Months? 1 still alive after 6 months?

Dr Roy Caldwell said, ‘Once these octopus have been collected and removed from their home environment, they have zero fitness - they are evolutionarily dead.’ This is my sentiment exactly and in the last thread I asked, ‘what is the point in keeping them?’ They cannot be bred. A gravid female’s eggs cannot be reared. Nothing can be learned about their behaviour in captivity. What’s the point other than having a soon to be dead, but kinda cool in the meantime pet?

So, what about the wild ‘zebra’ population dynamics? Well, no one knows; fact! Anything from here on is just wild guesses. I won’t guess. Despite how this may appear I am not actually against keeping all species of cephalopod in aquaria. There is nothing wrong with captive bred stock, and I don’t have any problem with captive farmed stock (wild animals which lay eggs and the eggs are hatched and raised in captivity. I don’t even have a problem with species like briareus, bimaculoides or aculeatus which seem to be locally abundant. But when the experts are giving us warnings I think we should take heed regarding those species.

The UK is currently taking huge steps forward in protecting animals under the care of people. This includes farm animals, working animals and pets both vertebrates and invertebrates. I think that over the next few years it will make a difference. Legislation is needed to protect our interests and the interests of the animals we are interested in.

Animal Welfare Act 2006
Animal Welfare Act 2006
 
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Interesting events over there, Colin. I never considered myself much of a rights activist of any sort, pretty much believed it was a personal choice for everyone...and heck, I eat meat.
I stopped eating fish two years ago as a personal choice, but Shanlyn still does, and it doesn't bother me. But, this sort of thing with validating collection for aquaria is driving me crazy.

It's not just octopus...there are fish that are brought into the country that should have never been touched, far too rare and impossible to breed in captivity. It really makes me ill.
 
Colin;88746 said:
According to my source who is an importer, cyanide use is still rife in certain areas. However, perhaps it is a misnomer and that squirting anything down the holes to flush out beasties is getting called that? That's my best guess...

Absolutely.
 
Colin;88748 said:
I think that the following statement ’The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2)’ is appalling statistics. So out of 18 imported cephalopods only 12 lasted more than a day? How long did the rest survive? What killed the others? What lesson was learned there? What would be termed a success? Half living a month? 2 Months? 1 still alive after 6 months?

With respect, I think that is cherry picking a quote. The whole sentence read (italic added for highlight): 'The cephs that came in last week were packed very well, and I think the ceph mortality (4 of 10 cuttles DOA, 1 more DAA, and 1 'common' occy out of 6 and no 'zebras' out of 2) was because the shipment was delayed - a 30-40 hour trip turned into a 60 hour trip.

To have 12 out of 18 cephs surrive a 60 hour transit time speaks to the quality of the collection and packing. When the boxes finally arrived, all of use unpacking were expecting the worst, but were happy to find it wasn't the worst. It wasn't that 12 out of 18 is good, it is that any[/] survived a shipment gone wrong is amazing.
The rest are all still alive a week later. I am doing my best to track how they do over time.
This particular exporter/collector doesn't use cyanide, and they pack their cephs in lots of water namely due to my getting the word to them regarding cephs. They don't collect big cuttles anymore for the same reason (2 of the cuttles were under and inch, and the rest were between 1 and 2 inches). This collector is also one of the new trends of collectors - a village station that has the community and the local environment at the forefront of their mission. All their animals are collected by hand and are kept well. Sadly, there is still no way for the end user to figure out if the fish they are looking at come from such a station.

There is plenty of cyanide still being used, but at the same time it is falling out of favor because net/hand catching is just as easy and the collectors are finally seeing that if the fish live longer, they get more money. This is rarely documented online because its not sexy, but it is discussed by people on the front lines in the Industry forum on reefs.org.

Also, we should all realize that the mortality we are discussing isn't limited to cephs, but to just about any wild collected marine ornamental. I produce pounds of captive raised coral, but because the industry is a volume industry, wild collected coral is still cheaper and for a lot of people money is the deciding factor. Although, when people spend 10 grand on a reef tank it is beyond me why they are so hot to save 20 bucks on a single specimen.


A quick point about the dyed and tattooed fish. I think its great that the UK has stopped their import. Sadly, this is not a local issue, but a global one, and those animals are going other places. Stopping their import in the UK is great, but for that action to truly be effective it needs to spread around the world. Keeping your won nose clean counts, but not forgetting that others don't care is also important.


** Warning! Philosophy Degree in action below **
I think we we are going to be honest, if we aren't propagating the animals in our tanks, the only actual justification for keeping anything in a glass prison is because you like to have it around. Is that bad, is that good? I don't know. However, even if we are propagating the animals, I think we are still part of the problem because our propagated animals make the hobby attractive to more people and most people don't care if they buy propagated animals or not. It seems to me that supporting the industry is supporting the industry, and that even those of us who supply the industry with propagated animals are still supporting the other, more icky parts of the industry. Even purchasing the animals with the intent of breeding doesn't stop something or justify something like what happened to the galaxy rasbora. I think keeping glass boxes full of animals supports all parts of the hobby/industry, good and bad. Does that mean we should get out? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean we should work to change the industry/hobby - you bet. At the same time, I think we need to make sure we look at the entire picture. The industry/hobby seems a lot like climate change - local efforts are great, but they don't necessarily make much of a difference on the global scale.
 
Thales;88777 said:
** Warning! Philosophy Degree in action below **
I think we we are going to be honest, if we aren't propagating the animals in our tanks, the only actual justification for keeping anything in a glass prison is because you like to have it around. Is that bad, is that good? I don't know. However, even if we are propagating the animals, I think we are still part of the problem because our propagated animals make the hobby attractive to more people and most people don't care if they buy propagated animals or not. It seems to me that supporting the industry is supporting the industry, and that even those of us who supply the industry with propagated animals are still supporting the other, more icky parts of the industry. Even purchasing the animals with the intent of breeding doesn't stop something or justify something like what happened to the galaxy rasbora. I think keeping glass boxes full of animals supports all parts of the hobby/industry, good and bad. Does that mean we should get out? Maybe, maybe not. Does that mean we should work to change the industry/hobby - you bet. At the same time, I think we need to make sure we look at the entire picture. The industry/hobby seems a lot like climate change - local efforts are great, but they don't necessarily make much of a difference on the global scale.


Ditto. I haven't had pets of any sort in years. I had tons of them when I was a kid, but now I don't bother. This does not mean I don't want them, it just means that I can't justify it in any sort of way for myself.

I see plenty of huge dogs living in tiny apartments that never get exercised, eat too much, and sleep all the time. To me, this is pretty much the same issue as keeping cephs in too small of a tank. And I don't have time to get into the hate I have for the "purebred" issue, so I won't. To be short though, I think that we have done way more damage to the genetic material of canines than we can do to cephs.

But, humans learn mostly from mistakes I think, if they are capable of learning at all. We are obviously making a lot of mistakes that are taking a toll on the whole planet, and it may not be until we really screw up that we do something about it. And to mirror Thales, just being alive in this world supports icky/nasty parts of human behavior.

Soapboxes are fun sometimes. Passion is something that we value highly, but reason is often the first casualty of strong emotion. This is not an indictment of anyone or any comment, just a friendly reminder.:biggrin2:
 
Good points, but I still feel that the selection of animals to be kept should be a decision reached by the responsible aquarist, not the legislative government.

In the early 80's, laws were passed in Arizona and California prohibiting the private keeping of several types of reptiles...it did not effect the wild populations at all, but it did drive up the price.

If mimics are outlawed, they will still be collected and sold...just at higher prices. It is up to the individual to make the choice "Am I doing the right thing?" I guess if you can look in the mirror, and be happy, then you are.
 
Feeder fish is actually quite a rare thing...

There are some who get a kick out of feeding live fish to other fish like morays, lionfish or maybe arowanas but I would say that it is an exception and not exclusive.

I'll hold my hands up and say that i do it sometimes. Well, on occasion I will get rid of excess fry by just leaving them in with the parents. And, in the past I have had to feed feeders to fish who refused to eat like a leaf fish and one or two others. i have also used live feeders in the past for cuttles when i ran out of inverts to feed them.

I guess that under the new UK animal welfare act that feeding live vertebrates to other animals would be an offence.
 
I don't think responsible aquarists making decisions to not buy a certain species will do anything to protect that species in the wild or captivity. The market will collect animals till there are no more to collect, we've seen it time and again, regardless of the actions/protests of individuals or small groups. Domestic laws regarding the importations or private keeping of exotic animals are like putting bandaids on open sucking chest wounds. Any meaningful change needs to happen at the source, weather it be commercial or legal.
 
cthulhu77;88789 said:
Good points, but I still feel that the selection of animals to be kept should be a decision reached by the responsible aquarist, not the legislative government.

Oh, that's the part I hate. It's what really divides my feelings on the subject.

It would be better if the responsible aquarists could guide the legislative governments.

Anyone want to define what a responsible aquarist is?

here's a knee jerk reaction - My local government decided that there is maybe a species of snakehead that could possibly survive a freezing cold scottish winter and be a problem in local waterways... what to do? They banned ALL species of Channa which even includes dwarves that would die if the water dropped below 60... The water outside is about the 30s just now
 
Thales;88794 said:
I don't think responsible aquarists making decisions to not buy a certain species will do anything to protect that species in the wild

Hmmm I disagree here, as the consumer we have the ultimate say in whether we buy the animals or not. We can speak with our wallets.

I also use education as a tool and it works! By buying animals like zebra octopuses, for whatever reason, only exasperates the problem
 

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