• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Ethical Considerations for Keeping Octopus in Captivity

"In your experience, why did people stop buying the boas? Was it because the market was flooded, because people wanted to protect the wild populations, or for some other reason or reasons?"

Animals are only sold when they bring a profit to the importer/wholesaler.

In the case of the Hogg Isle boas, the market was flooded quickly, and the wild population decimated. Protecting the wild populations would mean just that Protecting The Wild Populations...this can not be done by captive breeding. It needs to be done at the field level, unfortunately, too late for those pretty little snakes.
I would like to see it not happen to the octopus species.
 
cthulhu77;88555 said:
"In your experience, why did people stop buying the boas? Was it because the market was flooded, because people wanted to protect the wild populations, or for some other reason or reasons?"

Animals are only sold when they bring a profit to the importer/wholesaler.

In the case of the Hogg Isle boas, the market was flooded quickly, and the wild population decimated. Protecting the wild populations would mean just that Protecting The Wild Populations...this can not be done by captive breeding. It needs to be done at the field level, unfortunately, too late for those pretty little snakes.
I would like to see it not happen to the octopus species.


Thanks Greg.
I thought you making a connection of the end of collection of the Hog Isle Boa with boycotting a 'zebras' to end their collection collection, but since the boas dropped in price because of market saturation, it looks like I misunderstood.

The boas and the Galaxy rasbora are examples of what might/prolly will happen with the 'zebras'. I agree, and am saddened by the prospect. International action is needed on a level that overwhelms my mind. Its taken 20-30 years to start to see a positive trend away from collection of fish with cyanide, so I am not sure what to do here. Perhaps raising money to fund field research would be a good place to start.
 
That, Sir, is a great idea. I wonder if we could do a fund drive here on Tonmo for some field research? It would be great to meld the keeping of cephs in captivity and the exploration of the wild 'pods into one whole ball of wax.

Besides, I would like to see a photo of you with a zebra octopus on your head. :smile:
 
robyn;88490 said:
There is an emerging branch of mathematical ecology attempting to answer exactly these sorts of questions. From memory I think its called elasticity analyses.

I'd be quite interested in references and recommendations for particular papers... I'm hoping to get some time to do a google scholar search for this stuff, but if you have some specific recommendations, that's also good, particularly if you know some that are good for a "well-read intellectual, but ignorant computer scientists who hasn't taken too much hardcore biology and had to pick up a lot of terminology on the street" level reader like myself.

This also seems like the sort of thing that Fugisawas Sake would like, but he hasn't been around much lately.

I should also clarify a bit: I didn't in any way mean to criticize the conclusion that "zebras" shouldn't be collected and imported, certainly not in the overzealous, irresponsible, and unregulated (and greed-driven) manner that people are describing. I just am wary of over-extrapolating the details, but it's pretty damn clear that the current practices are unethical, unacceptable, and unreasonable.

My only intended point is that collecting endangered animals is not a "one-size fits all" problem, and it's the sort of thing where frequently there is a great deal of complexity, so to try to address it sometimes requires a lot of open-minded-cynicism, so to speak. But it's clear that the "zebras" were doing a lot better before a bunch of jerks started to spray cyanide at them to make a quick fortune selling them to rich idiots in American LFS stores, so stopping that seems like a great idea. My comments are mostly in the theoretical domain of "will they bounce back" and "in what ways is this similar to or different from other examples." I understand that Greg sees a lot of similarities between them and other "exotic pet" animals, and certainly in terms of the "human side" of the behavioral and economic examples, I agree, but in terms of reproduction, ecology, and whatnot, I think it's intellectual thin ice to say that a ceph that probably breeds a large brood about once a year is going to respond to pressures in a way similar to boas or tasmanian tigers. However, there's no doubt that if these collectors remove a large fraction of the wild population, it will be an unacceptably horrible thing for the population, so it's the details, not the big picture, that I'm wanting to get into.
 
Interestingly the sale of cephs is not common in NZ. I can honestly say I have never seen one for sale in any pet store (or aquarium store) I have been in. I confess I actively discourage visitors to the aquarium who ask about keeping them, this is mainly because they would have to catch their own and it is difficult to distiguish between midgets which could conceivably be kept in a home aquarium and a juvenile common (which gets HUGE). Our aim as a public aquarium is to enthuse people about the marine environment and it's inhabitants (in situ!) and to raise their awareness about some of the issues surrounding it......this is why we hold marine animals (and go through an extremely painful ethics approval process every year :roll: ). We do of course provide information and help to home aquarists if they call with a problem and we take in and nurse (or euthanise :cry:) marine animals brought in by the public (we are a bird rescue centre in the event of oil spill). We also run aquarium technology classes.

BTW don't get me started on orange roughy..........if ever there was a fish not suited to commercial exploitation thats it!!!!

J
 
A few ramblings on the problems related to the importation of “zebra” octopus.

________________________________________
Wunderpus burrows in muck in the field, but I don't know of anyone who has successfully recreated a substrate in an aquarium that is conducive to burrowing by this species. My experience is that they will hide behind objects or occasionally go into a piece of pvc, but they do not excavate burrows as they would be in the wild. I am not an octopus shrink, but my experience with various species of octopus in the wild and in captivity tells me that these animals are stressed. Wunderpus in the wild have a very prescribed activity period emerging about one to two crep periods for a few minutes after sunset and again for a short period before dawn. When on the surface, they are voracious predators foraging over the bottom traveling several feet collecting small crabs and other crustaceans before retreating to their burrows. In captivity, this strict activity pattern seems to break down - again a sign that the animals are not behaving normally.

Many cuttles produce large eggs that develop into demersal juveniles that can be reared. I am totally in favor of working with these animals to develop efficient and effective culture techniques. How many octopus with small eggs that develop into paralavrae have been reared? I know of one and that was accomplished expending Herculean effort. It is not realistic to think that Wunderpus or the mimic are going to be cultured using ordinary technology that is available to even the most sophisticated aquarist.

As for the refrain that we don't know much about these animals in the wild and that this some how justifies continuing to support their collection and sale in the trade, I would say that we already know enough to be concerned.

How was it that these animals were only recognized two decades ago? Why is it that there were almost none of these animals in museum collections taken from habitats where these animals are found? How is it that some of the best dive guides in the world go for months without spotting a single animal? Why is it that we know basically nothing about the biology of their larvae in the plankton or of their development until they reach adult status? Doesn't it make sense that an apparently rare species restricted to a muck habitat might be in trouble given that these same environments are some the most impacted by anthropogenic forces? And why is it that we are talking about species that are so rare and desirable that they are routinely selling for $400 each even though the buyers probably (or should) know that they will survive for at most a few months. One would think than if these animals were not rare, they would be flooding the market.

What useful information are we going to gain from keeping a Wunderpus in a glass box that is too small to allow it to behave in a species typical manner and on a substrate that prevents it from withdrawing from the world? Every photograph that can be taken has probably already been taken in the wild – or could be. Formal controlled studies of the stimuli that elicit mimcry don’t mean much in a stressed animal and for that matter, I’m not aware of reports that these animals exhibit a normal range of mimicry in captivity. There is some information that might be gained on venom (we tried) and other information available from preserved specimens (ovarian development, taxonomic characters, etc.) I also mentioned in an earlier posting that there was some molecular data that might be gained that could elucidate phylogenetic relationships. However, without good information on the exact origin of the specimen, the value of such data is limited. Perhaps more relevant, the vast majority of animals imported are being allowed to rot in their tank or go down the toilet and contribute nothing to our knowledge of these species.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept the argument that because we don't have detailed information on these animals in the field that this some how justifies promoting the importation of as many as the collectors can supply.

Those of you who have read my comments on this and other forums know that I do not buy into arguments that fall into the category of "ethics". I grew up on a farm, was an avid hunter, eat meat (including cephalopods), and have destroyed my share of habitat studying stomatopods and octopus. What I care about is the preservation of marine habitats and the biodiversity they support. When there are legitimate lines of scientific study to be pursued, I support it whether it be in the field or aquarium. Zebras are just one small, but very visible piece of the problems being created by the wholesale importation of exotic species for entertainment.

Do I have an answer. No, except that protection can only come through legislation and enforcement. When I was involved in the discovery of the Indonesian coelacanth 10 years ago, we were extremely concerned that word of the discovery would leak out and that Manado would be over-run by public aquarium collectors hoping to exhibit a specimen and by individuals hoping to sell coelacanth parts as “medicines”. It took months to put in place protective measures to ensure that this species would have CITES protection, that the local fishermen understood and supported a ban on collection, and that the Indonesian government would protect them. Only when all this was in place, was the announcement of the discovery made and even then it was difficult to hold the line.

Zebra octopus are not coelacanths that already enjoyed international protection, but they do have many unusual and appealing features that might allow them to be promoted as a poster species for the protection of marine habitats. This is where I would like to see our efforts placed.

Roy
 
Monty, here's an excellent article co-authored by Hal Caswell, who has published a large number of similarly excellent papers:

Ecology: Vol. 81, No. 3, pp. 654–665. LIFE HISTORIES AND ELASTICITY PATTERNS: PERTURBATION ANALYSIS FOR SPECIES WITH MINIMAL DEMOGRAPHIC DATA (2000)
Selina S. Heppell,a Hal Caswell,b and Larry B. Crowderc

Here's a piece of the abstract: I hope its ok to post this here!

Elasticity analysis is a useful tool in conservation biology. The relative impacts of proportional changes in fertility, juvenile survival, and adult survival on asymptotic population growth λ (where ln(λ) = r, the intrinsic rate of increase) are determined by vital rates (survival, growth, and fertility), which also define the life history characteristics of a species or population. Because we do not have good demographic information for most threatened populations, it is useful to categorize species according to their life history characteristics and related elasticity patterns. To do this, we compared the elasticity patterns generated by the life tables of 50 mammal populations. In age-classified models, the sum of the fertility elasticities and the survival elasticity for each juvenile age-class are equal; thus, age at maturity has a large impact on the contribution of juvenile survival to λ. Mammals that mature early and have large litters (“fast” mammals, such as rodents and smaller carnivores) also generally have short lifespans; these populations had relatively high fertility elasticities and lower adult survival elasticities. “Slow” mammals (those that mature late), having few offspring and higher adult survival rates (such as ungulates and marine mammals), had much lower fertility elasticities and high adult or juvenile survival elasticities. Although certain life history characteristics are phylogenetically constrained, we found that elasticity patterns within an order or family can be quite diverse, while similar elasticity patterns can occur in distantly related taxa.

I might have the full text somewhere - PM me if you want the pdf....
 
I have seen several mentions of 'zebras' being collected with cyanide. Is this speculation or is there evidence it is actually happening?
 
Not likely. It would be a fairly inefficient technique unless you knew where the burrow was. Spreading cyanide over hectares of muck isn't going to yield much. Bleach is used sometimes to drive animals out of the sand, but these guys are fairly easy to catch if you see them out.

Roy
 
I agree Roy. I would be surprised if juice was used for these guys, and was wondering if the idea it was was internetfact or if someone actually knew it happened.
 

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