• Looking to buy a cephalopod? Check out Tomh's Cephs Forum, and this post in particular shares important info about our policies as it relates to responsible ceph-keeping.

Cleaning used tank that had copper in it

The issue is good animal husbandry - providing a place where your ceph can be safe and healthy and live out its life. I think you would like to do this, but you have time and money constraints.

No, the chemicals you stir into tap water won't make it safe for cephs, or many other marine animals. Get an analysis of your water supply (usually provided free annually, at least here). Artificial sea salt attempts to reproduce sea water when mixed. If you don't start with neutral water, you're changing this composition. My water here in Texas contains too much copper already, not to mention other undesirables, but it's still quite safe to drink.

Brock, I've read most every Ceph Care post since it began, and I can't agree with your statement :
"Plus a lot of members here just want an octopus for the "Wow factor" and don't give a hoot what they need to survive and be healthy."

Most people on this forum care for individual cephs and want to do right by them. Only a few are like those you describe.
 
Nancy, the only thing I'm really missing right now is an RO system. pump for it (my apartment just doesn't have very good water pressure), and a stand for a 55. Do you think that I could use the substrate, live rock, filter, skimmer, and heater from the 46 that I set up or would I have to buy that new again now that it has been in non RO water in a tank that may or may not have had copper in it?

I realize the issue is good animal husbandry, but there are often tolerable conditions which are less than optimal. By tolerable, I mean conditions in which an animal can live without undue stress caused by an inadequate environment. For example, I had an arowana many years ago. They grow fast and many recommend a several hundred gallon tank in order for them to fully enjoy life - maybe even a larger tank. I kept mine in a 90 gallon tank and it lived what seemed like a happy life for several years before it broke its neck trying to jump out of the tank one night :frown:

I spoke at length about the subject with someone who owned an octopus which lived a long and interactive life, and he's no dummy. I found it quite strange that his equipment differed so much from what those here recommend as a minimum. I'm trying to find a happy medium between optimal and acceptable.


Why is it that his ceph did so well in water you would probably describe as unsafe for cephs? Can anybody answer this question?

Has anybody used non RO water for their ceph? What happened? I would appreciate any empirical evidence that could be offered.

Also, you say the solutions which claim to remove chlorine and heavy metals won't make water ceph safe. How do you know? Do they remove any of the heavy metals? What are you basing this on?

I'm fairly certain that the water in my community contains some heavy metals. I would guess it is not among the cleanest in the country, though, it is probably not the worst. I live in Morgantown, West Virginia.

Lastly, I know it may seem as though I've beaten this topic into the ground, but I am trying to gather as much information as possible. I have been researching cephs for quite awhile, and I am determined to keep one happy and healthy.
 
I think my example needs a bit of clarification.

"it lived what seemed like a happy life for several years before it broke its neck trying to jump out of the tank one night"

This just sounds bad, but Arowanas tend to jump at night no matter how big the tank is. It wasn't trying to escape. It is generally recommended that one keep something heavy on the tank so they can't jump out.

 
After scouring the web, I still have not found one instance of someone keeping an octo without using RO/DI water. I give up. It looks like I've got another couple of months and another couple of hundred dollars to spend before I will be able to keep one. I'll be back.
 
:soapbox:Hayek,
I may be incorrect in my second guessing but from several of your comments (the arowana and the use of copper medications or any medications directly in a display tank specifically) that although you are an experienced aquarist, most of your time has been spent with freshwater setups. The differences way out weight the similarities (the only one I can think of is that both containers hold liquid - even brackish water setups are not comparible). I have not kept an octo in treated tap but the reason I have not is seeing the difference in survival of my marine tanks when I switched (I was using a very small DI filter initially as we also have a lot of minerals and metals in North GA), long before I set up my first octo home. No chemical treatments can remove minerals or metals and cause more harm than any benefit. An RO system does not do this either. It is the DI sand bed that serves this function. The PolyFilters (brand not poly material) claim to remove some of the metals and a recent experiment showed me that putting a copper penny in saltwater - even the newer penneys - will indeed put copper in the water and that the Polyfilter will display a blue color when exposed to copper (other colors show traces of other metals). The experiment was not to see if I could remove copper (nor would it remove all of it) but to see if I could add and detect it (nothing lives in the tank). There is an adage that goes, "nothing good happens fast in a saltwater tank" and additives that try are begging for high mortality and a continuous recycling of a marine environment.

You mentioned wanting to keep a dwarf species and specifically joubini. What you are more likely to find is a mercatoris. Joubinis are supposed to be very common in the Caribbean but few surface to become aquarium raised. The mercs, on the other hand live in shallower water and are often hitch hikers on live rock. A 45 is a bit large for them and I recommend smaller (there are several good journals on the mercs and I will claim my later ones as being readable) for your enjoyment and occassional visibility. I kept my original female, three of her offspring and one grandchild for half his life in one that size but my most enjoyable merc tank was a 15 gallon hex (20 would be a better number though). Per haps since you expect to move in a year, a smaller tank for an octo would work out until you move.

Lastly, if the only medication that you think contained copper is malachite green, then the discussion is way over played. When you mentioned it initially, I did some checking because I did not think it was copper based. Here is one of the articles I found that you may want to read.
 
Sorry Nancy, that was meant to read "new members". And yes, a lot was exaggerating, but it happens. People post and say "I want an octopus, it can stay in my reef right?" Or things to that nature, which for me says that they don't really care for the animal, or else they would've done independant research prior to posting.
 
So you're quite happy to take the advice of an engineering PhD over a Marine Biology PhD, maybe I'll go out and build a plane, after all I drive a car successfully!


Having a grumpy day............but why would you negate the advice of those who study or maintain (eg professional aquarists or extremely advanced home aquarists) these animals for a living (SOS etc) for someone who doesn't ? If you want to keep an expensive, sensitive and intelligent animal then you should keep it in the best possible conditions.

By all means take short cuts but it's the animal that is likely to suffer (and your wallet)

J


Hayek;135406 said:
I recently spoke to several extremely intelligent people who have owned octopuses (engineering Ph.Ds), and from what they have told me, many on this forum go a bit overboard. Three things that conflicted with what I have read here are:

1. RO isn't necessary - they kept octopuses without using RO water.
2. It isn't necessary to cycle the tank for 3 months prior to adding the octo, though one should wait a month until ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels fall off after the initial live rock die off.
3. You can keep an octo without a protein skimmer.
4. The tank that had one ick treatment with a substance that had malachite green in it sometime during the last 3 years is probably OK to use as long as it wasn't recent or a repetitive treatment and the other equipment is new.

Once again, this is from people who have successfully kept octopuses in the past. In light of new information, I'm going to try a dwarf in the tank I cleaned, if only so future used tank purchasers have some empirical evidence on which to base a decision.

I know many of you will frown on this and tell me that I am being cruel to the octopus, but the worst case scenario is that it gets a toxic dose of a heavy metal and dies. In the wild, octopuses have thousands of babies and the vast majority of them don't live full lives. I don't see all that much of a difference. They kill themselves after a year anyway.

Regardless of whether I start getting hateful replies, I'll post the results.

edit: also, I'm a student and just don't have $X,XXX lying around to invest in a state of the art octo setup. I've spent over six hundred dollars already....
 
Hayek, I also live in WV.

I didn't use RO/DI water in my octopus tank. But not in order to cut corners. I had originally set up a 20 gallon for a mercatoris, but then changed my mind and decided to use my previously set up 40 for a bimac. I had forgotten that it didn't have RO/DI water. My octopus lived just fine for a solid 9 months or so, which is a normal life span since the breeder had it for a few months before me.

That's not to say that anyone can do it, however. My water might be metal free, and someone else's may not.

I'm assuming you go to WVU?
 
Dwhatley: I read the article you suggested and am extremely happy that malachite green does not contain copper. That will at the very least remove one variable.

Brock: That is good to hear. I've been at WVU for quite awhile now, I'm finishing up a second degree in computer science before moving to a warmer climate.

Jean: the only reason I would take this engineering Ph.D's advice over a marine biology Ph.D in this situation is that when he kept his octopus he lived several hundred meters from where I live now. His water probably went through the same pipes mine will. Water quality varies quite a bit depending on where one lives. Having empirical evidence that an octo could thrive in my local water without RO is quite useful, wouldn't you agree?


Regardless, I'm going to do things correctly. Thanks for the replies.
 
Hayek,

I just skimmed through the thread and thought I'd toss in my two cents.

Ultimately, there's a million variables every time you set up a tank. A lot of people get these critters and have really bad luck, meanwhile some people get them and have good luck. There's really no predicting it, but the long-time consensus on TONMO is that you want to do everything you can to stack the deck in your favor. Will an octo survive without a protein skimmer? Probably, although the tank would probably look like a dump and need more water changes. Will it survive without RO water? Probably, although here you're on thinner ice.

Ultimately, the people that have the best luck are people with saltwater experience who are willing to make a commitment (both in terms of finances and commitment) to trying cephs. The people who don't succeed tend to be the guys who've never set up a tank before and want to try it on a whim. These are the people who cut corners and try to do it on the cheap. If experienced TONMOers are trying to dissuade you from this endeavor because you're not interested in getting a skimmer or an RO/DI unit, it's not necessarily because those are life-or-death components, but rather because you're establishing yourself in that latter group and they want to save you the trouble.

Honestly, you'll probably spend more money in food than you did for the equipment in question. There are threads here where someone says something like, "I can't believe I'm spending $60 a week in food for my cephs!" and the reply is, "Did someone tell you this would be inexpensive?"

When it comes down to it I wouldn't set up a tank with tap water or without a skimmer, even though I know I could probably get away with it. I didn't even when I was in college and living on $600/month. I bet I could also get away with not replacing the tensioner or the water pump on my car when I change the timing belt. Part of it is deciding who you want to be in life--the guy who pulls out all the stops and does everything top notch; or the guy who does a half-assed job at everything and manages OK most of the time.

Whatever you choose, I hope you have the best of luck. If you do get a skimmer, make sure you get something good; most hang-on-back skimmers are $200 worth of junk. Even if you do get the best skimmer out there and are only mixing up salt with the purest water, there's still a good chance your octo will die for no reason, but at least then you'll know there wasn't anything you could do.

Dan
 

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