Bush Seeks Ban on Destructive Fishing

tonmo

Cthulhu
Staff member
Webmaster
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
10,701
I know no one is talking to me in this thread :smile:, but to clarify my own point here, what I'm saying is that I'd like to subsidize a captive bred program. *IF* we had such a program, I can't see why we *wouldn't* discourage wild-caught. What am I missing with that principle? i.e., we could just tell everyone "don't get wild-caught, TONMO.com supports provider X".
 


DHyslop

Architeuthis
Registered
Joined
Dec 22, 2004
Messages
1,713
tonmo;80420 said:
I know no one is talking to me in this thread :smile:, but to clarify my own point here, what I'm saying is that I'd like to subsidize a captive bred program. *IF* we had such a program, I can't see why we *wouldn't* discourage wild-caught. What am I missing with that principle? i.e., we could just tell everyone "don't get wild-caught, TONMO.com supports provider X".

Well, it comes down to the variety of cephalopods out there. Lets say that there's a successful breeding operation that gives us all the bimacs we could ever want. That would be great, but does it mean I would be an outcast if I decided that I prefer keeping a briareus or an aculeatus? And then there's cuttlefish!

The other thing is cost. Even if it was subsidized, a CB octo is almost certainly going to be more expensive than a WC one. If there is no environmental effect to purchasing the WC octo--and its cheaper-- what's immoral about WC? Lacking a moral imperative, does the captive breeding program justify itself?

The real reason behind CB isn't conservation but rather availability. Its illegal to collect bimacs for sale in California and as such they're rather hard to come by. The only bimacs available are those from organizations that disregard the law (Marine Depot) and from hobbyists raising eggs (of which there are at least two).

The reason its illegal to collect bimacs for sale is because the threat does exist if this hobby took off and people kept octos like they keep clownfish. We're not at that point and the law even recognizes that by allowing people to collect them for personal use. I really believe that captive breeding for profit (or to break even) won't be realized until the hobby gets to that point.

Dan
 

monty

TONMO Supporter
Staff member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2004
Messages
4,884
tonmo;80420 said:
I know no one is talking to me in this thread :smile:, but to clarify my own point here, what I'm saying is that I'd like to subsidize a captive bred program. *IF* we had such a program, I can't see why we *wouldn't* discourage wild-caught. What am I missing with that principle? i.e., we could just tell everyone "don't get wild-caught, TONMO.com supports provider X".

My comments were aimed at Myopsida's oringinal proposal, which was

How about TONMO supporting a ban on the keeping of all but captive bred cepahlopods in aquaria.

which is completely hyperbolic. I really liked the TONMO community's informal position when octopets was around: "there are a lot of good reasons to prefer the captive bred bimacs from octopets to wild-caught octopuses, here are all the reasons," which seems to be pretty much what you're advocating, Tony.

however, a ban is completely different.

Perhaps it would be useful for us, as a community, to try to come up with some reasonable, rational standards and actually write some sort of "generally agreed positions on controversial issues in pet cephs" article (which would obviously need a catchier title). Cover stuff like mimics and wunderpuses, blue rings, metasepia, nautilus, CB vs WC, species choices, what to do if you see one of these animals in your LFS, and stuff like that.

if Myopsida wants to start a petition for people to sign for banning all wild caught cephalopods in the hobby trade, I won't object, but I certainly won't sign it, since it sounds like a crackpot idea to me. And as a member of the TONMO community, I would be inclined to say that we should only take "positions" if it's clear that most of the active members of the community are in agreement. Of course, since it's a benevolent dictatorship, I suppose you (Tony) can make any policy you want, but I assume you want to keep us peons believing you care what we think, lest we rise up in rebellion against the despot. See, I addressed you directly, Tony, feel better :twisted: ?
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
3,026
The biggest problems I can see with wild caught are:
1. People who are doing the catching and shipping...may not know or care if they are catching rare, threatened or endangered species.
2. The packing and shipping may kill a high percentage of cephs shipped. We have no real way of knowing.
3. By most accounts here, most LFS don't have a clue about how to keep cephs, and may not only kill those in their care, but apparently give terribly inaccurate information to people who are interested in buying them.

Ideally, someone knowedgeable and caring, with adequate resources to do it, would breed cephs for sale. Thales was (is?) doing a good job of that with cuttles.
The breeder can do a lot to guarantee that the purchaser has as much accurate info. as possible and the equipment, commitment, and skills necessary to maintain a healthy environment for the ceph, and the financial means to purchase the apparently vast amounts of fresh seafood the little critters require.
We certainly have the knowedgeable, caring people part covered here, but finding someone who has the space , money, and time to do it right would be the problem.
 
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Messages
3,026
chrono_war01's quote

Hey what about the SUVS and the Alaska Oil Rig?

Bush may be saying "Save the enviroment", but I really don't see the point if our basic lifestyles don't change.
_______

myopsida;80386 said:
Good point - conservation has to start at the 'ground roots' level.

.[/QUOTE

There are lots of things we could all be doing as individuals, and certainly anybody who is really concered about environmental issues should already be doing some of them. There are a whole lot of relatively easy things, a lot of cheap things, things that will actually save you money at the same time they help the environment, things that cost more but also have a bigger impact, and the big budget things like buying a Prius. Maybe we should have a sticky about that. There are plenty of websites that have that info available, but having links to good ones here might be a good idea. One I'd like to propose is for someone who knows how to do that kind of stuff to design a flier detailing the horrendous effects of bottom trawling and other destructive fishing methods, and why fish markets should not be be selling orange roughy, swordfish, etc...
 


tonmo

Cthulhu
Staff member
Webmaster
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
10,701
Well there are lots of great ideas (and great points) in this thread (except for the part about Monty leading an online rebellion! :goofysca:).

I guess it's all hypothetical, because there really ISN'T a robust, trusted captive bred program available right now. Someone reply to this thread when that happens!
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
4,935
tonmo;80434 said:
I guess it's all hypothetical, because there really ISN'T a robust, trusted captive bred program available right now. Someone reply to this thread when that happens!

Ok, here is what I see as a huge stumbling block for a captive bred program... I have three cuttles for the past 5 months, they cost me $30 plus shipping. I am spending (conservatively) $50 a week to feed them. That's $200 a month, $1000 so far (:goofysca: I never actually added it up before now!!! remind me to never, ever let hubby look at this site :bugout: ). I now have 36 eggs, so in order to break even (just on feeding costs!), I have to sell the eggs for $30 a piece (assuming I keep three to keep breeding). Now that is not a terrible price, but not all female cuttles produce this many eggs, some cuttles don't survive and of course there is the start up cost of the tanks and maintenance and electricity... So basically I'm losing money... I think I will stay out of the captive breeding and just keep my three little, cute, expensive cuttles...

On the upside, I am giving Thales 15 of my eggs so he can start a captive breeding program :biggrin2:
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
2,390
You folks don't really know me that well as I haven't been posting here long, but from what I've noticed since I started in this hobby is I think for the most part, the aquarium hobby community is doing what they can about conservation of our ocean life. Every aquarium book, and just about every magazine article, in some way or another makes a point of addressing conservation issues. We let it be known that Mimics and Wunderpus' shouldn't be purchased because of the past experiences and lack of information, this could eventually have a positive effect on the trade, much more so than no advice at all.

These things are some of the oldest species on Earth, and being they are in the ocean, which human kind knows relatively VERY LITTLE about, I think they are pretty well protected. Of course this is only my observation, based on what I've read on the WWW, books, and seen on Animal Planet, Discovery, etc. I could be wrong. When I started this hobby a friend of mine said "You know what you should get? An Octopus!" and I immediately searched the web for captive keeping Octopi. I had no idea it was possible. I found this site, I found other sites. And here I am two years later finally owning one, praying I do it as much justice as I intended to when I started researching two years ago. We are doing what we can. You people are doing a great job. I try to share as much solid information as I can with other people when they show interest in this hobby. Don't change a thing, other than, as mentioned.... get a captive-bred program going. I wish I could myself. That's my dream. One of these days perhaps.

Liveaquaria.com lists Aquacultured Cuttlefish and Octopus on their site. They also have a "No guarantee" statement to go with them that I see as a pretty good way of deterring unfit people from ordering them. I sure wouldn't spend the money after reading that it's better to go to an expert or even a zoo, if I didn't have the confidence from my experience.

Man is his own worst enemy. I see a lot of Hummers driving around. They get HORRIBLE gas mileage, plus I'm sure insurance and car payments on those things are ridiculously excessive. This is something that drives me insane. Look at it one way, Hey, they're doing us a favor. Burning up gas faster so we'll have to find better, more efficient resources sooner. Catch 22. You can't ban Hummers I guess. I drive a Honda Civic, it gets almost 40 miles a gallon, and in that I feel I'm doing the world a small favor.
 

Latest Posts


Top