[Announcement]: Ceph Care Ethics

[cthulhu77]

The thread was moved to Supporters before my request to move it from the Supporters forum.

You earlier posted about articles and evidence. Though I have asked twice already about both, you have yet to produce either.

I do believe all of us wish that had been different, but it is past now, and time to move on. If you choose to carry a grudge, fine.

Articles and evidence? Look over the past two years of posts, Thales. Since the arrival of mimic and wonderpus to our lfs's, how many have you seen? A dozen? Two dozen? I am not going to argue the point with you for too long, it seems that some of us want everybody and their brother to know the joys of keeping rare cephalopods, and to hell with the cost to the wild animals.

I am trying to look at this objectively, but am losing perspective when bashed with simplicity. I can't send you every pm I have gotten...or every email. If you don't believe me, or Colin, or any of the others, then fine...I can't change beliefs.

The truth is: Rare octopus are being imported, without much regulation. Broadcasting news of how wonderful they are willy-nilly does not help keep the importation and collection down, it increases it. Exponentially.

Many of you seem fine with that. I find that pathetic.

 

[Thales]

I disagree strongly and completely.

This information does NOT have to be available to everyone, and should be available to those WHO CARE ENOUGH to research the field.

This is absolutely ridiculous, to be questioning the facts, and somehow wanting to get public attention drawn to this wonderful animal...is this some sort of a crank?

With respect Greg,
You often use words like facts or evidence, but don't seem to produce either. There currently are no facts on the general population of the wunderpus or on the effect collection has had or on the degradation of their particular environment. I am all for promoting caution, but arguing from a position of authority that doesn't actually exist is just spreading misinformation.

 

[cthulhu77]

With respect Greg,
You often use words like facts or evidence, but don't seem to produce either. There currently are no facts on the general population of the wunderpus or on the effect collection has had or on the degradation of their particular environment. I am all for promoting caution, but arguing from a position of authority that doesn't actually exist is just spreading misinformation.

Thanks, Thales...you just made my point entirely.

NO FACTS ON THE GENERAL POPULATION

So, do you feel vindicated?

 

[Thales]

Greg,
I am wary to continue yet another antagonistic derogatory discussion with you, a TONMO staffer, where, from you, there can be no compromise or possibility to agree to disagree, and where I am asked to defend extreme and simplified versions of positions I don't actually hold.

 

[cthulhu77]

Sir Thales!

I am totally in your corner about agreeing to disagree. But, that being said, I can not point out deleted or blocked threads...or past pm's and emails...if you think that I am somehow on a soapbox about this issue, you would be correct, until we know more about the animal, they should not be displayed or kept.

You have your stance, and I certainly respect the wealth of knowledge that you possess in regards to the captive husbandry of cephalopods.

 

[Thales]

Greg,

I don't think you understand my stance, and I don't believe you are interested in understanding it. I think you are more interested in winning than in having a discussion about this stuff, and that makes me a little sad.

 

[cthulhu77]

If this is going to be a personal discussion, please pm me. I do have to work today, but can get to it later on.

That aside, I do believe in winning...the position that the octo keepers are defending is weak, and I actually care more for the wild octopus than I do for the one's in the tanks across the globe. To me, they are genetically dead, which is sad.

I guess I could respond that I am bummed that some of you don't find it as sad as I do.

 

[Thales]

Greg,

You don't seem to realize that you made it personal. Your above post shows once again that you don't actually understand my position, but seem to be trying to simplify it to an extreme 'sound bite' that you can rail against.

 

[cthulhu77]

Greg,

You don't seem to realize that you made it personal. Your above post shows once again that you don't actually understand my position, but seem to be trying to simplify it to an extreme 'sound bite' that you can rail against.

OK, I will try this once again before heading out the door.

I really don't mean this personally about you, Thales, at all. I do mean it personally for anyone who keeps wonderpus or mimics (which does include you, but is not limited to you).

Certainly, I am trying to rail quite loudly about the mismanagement of ethical considerations that have led to this disgusting time in ceph keeping, where what is "cool and neato" takes precedence over scientific knowledge. Knowledge gleaned from observation of wild animals.

The ceph keepers on this site have made their stance clear. They are going to keep cephs in captivity come hell or high water, and who cares about the environment, they want their mimics!

Yep, I am going to rail hard.

 

[Thales]

The ceph keepers on this site have made their stance clear. They are going to keep cephs in captivity come hell or high water, and who cares about the environment, they want their mimics!

Yep, I am going to rail hard.

That is not at all my stance, and it appears that you aren't interested in understand what my stance, or others stance, actually is.

 

[sorseress]

We all know the circumstances in which Thales acquired his wunderpus. He didn't go out looking for it, and it could very well be alive now only because he is the one who bought it. In general, I have very serious issues with keeping rare species in home aquariums, and I certainly would be much happier if the wholesaler had not purchased it, and even happier if no one had collected it. Thales, I would like to know if you explained to the wholesaler you got him from how rare these creatures are, and that importing them is the wrong thing to do. If you did, do you think he "got it", or is he likely to continue to import them?

 

[Thales]

Thales, I would like to know if you explained to the wholesaler you got him from how rare these creatures are, and that importing them is the wrong thing to do. If you did, do you think he "got it", or is he likely to continue to import them?

I told him it looks like they are rare, and that we don't know much about them, and that I think they shouldn't be collected until we know more. They haven't ordered any in since, and I don't believe they will. They have gotten other cephs in and their level of husbandry of those animals has increased considerably.


I have also finally added this "Things to think about before you buy a cephalopod" to my website, and it bears mentioning that the wunderpus movie is not accessible from my general ceph movies page.

 

[sorseress]

Thanks.

 

[tonmo]

Phew! Fun stuff! Well, I regret the thread went this direction, but that's how it goes sometimes. I trust everyone will "rise above".

I definitely have no personal grudges to bear here. I've personally met most people involved in this discussion at TONMOCON I, and hope to meet the rest at TONMOCON II. I genuinely like everyone involved in this thread discussion. Everyone is a "good person".

From what I can gather, aside from some gruff demeanor, there are a few things at play here:

1) Thales is voicing objection to his thread being moved to Supporters.

2) I saw John's (pipsquek's) objection to any level of "content control". To respond to one item -- John, I am not making any evaluations about the people who participate (post) on these forums. I agree that this is predominantly a very civil, educated and capable audience of contributors. But we also have many lurkers, and this information is for public display. You and I have no idea about the credentials of the people who read these forums. Furthermore, to an example I gave to Thales when I first advised him on the decision to move the thread, if there was a thread that talked about blatant mistreatment of cephs, I imagine most people would support its suppression or removal.

Since this has turned into a debate (and heated at that), I am going to "pull rank" on this, and basically say that the final decision rests with me. While everyone may not agree with my stance, at this time my stance is that TONMO.com does not condone the "promotion" of mimics and other "exotics" as viable candidates for an in-home tank. Any thread which promotes them for in-home care will likely be closed, and any readers will be referenced to our code of ethics.

I regret that any of this would become personal, I think Thales is a GREAT guy and found him to be great company in Monterey -- he is a highly capable ceph keeper (something I know nothing about, btw), and an excellent educator.

My concern was (and remains) that the Fontenelle thread (and others) did not adequately address the problems in the trade and the unknowns surrounding exotic procurement. That is through not fault of anyone's, by the way -- I see it as a flaw in the medium. I'd rather that TONMO.com does inspire any passer by to believe that they should ask their LFS if they, too, can get a mimic.

The idea that TONMO.com might actually be causing harm to the animals that I sought to celebrate when I created this site in the first place concerns me deeply, hence the action.

 

[Thales]

Tony,

As I said all along, TONMO is your site and you should do as you see fit. I am particularly happy that you allow this discussion to continue, some sites wouldn't. I fully appreciate you letting me express my issues with the moving of my thread and the way it was done. I hope (and am pretty sure) that you understand that the only reason I brought them up is because I care about cephs and this community - if I didn't I might have just left without a second thought. Being able to discuss it has allowed the feelings of alienation from this community I originally felt to begin to subside.

It does seem to me that if you are worried that TONMO.com might be causing harm to the animals you sought to celebrate when you created this site, you might want to make the entire ceph care section for members only. Perhaps keep some of the articles public, but not the discussion.
There is far more bad husbandry of the 'run of the mill' cephs than there is of the 'exotic/rare' cephs in the aquarium hobby simply because the number of the 'run of the mill' cephs coming in is much more massive that the 'exotic/rares'. The 'run of the mills' are more accessible because they are far less expensive than the 'exotics'. As with 'exotics', any wild ceph collection for the industry produces x number of dead for every one that makes it to the aquarium store. As with 'exotics', any wild collection of cephs has risks to the environment and to the population of the ceph being collected. As with 'exotics', any 'n3wbE' surfing this site coming across pics of cephs being kept successfully in tanks gets the idea that they can do it too even if they don't bother to read the caveats. Remember that, at least in the US, every warm water ceph is really an 'exotic'. It seems that if we are to really care about these animals as a whole, the arguments about restricting some of the discussion of ceph husbandry to a closed forum should apply to all the animals, not just the pretty ones.